The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway

[thelakelander]

Lol. To be fair, I'll also say it's pretty obvious which one made a living off of working with them to identify and design development sites that fit their demographic and site requirements.  Nobody is driving past four suburban Targets to get to one downtown on a regular basis and the average IKEA visitor isn't spending that day walking down downtown streets or dining in downtown restaurants. So the question becomes how do we best take advantage of our neighborhood's assets in a manner where they work with the market.  If we can resolve that issue, we can not only have a special downtown but a vibrant Arlington, Regency Square and SJTC as well.

[thelakelander]

1.  Because when we spoke with IKEA about locating to Jville, they wanted a local retail partner with a specific financial and experience profile. The only one that qualified was Steinmart.  So without them, there is no deal.  You proposed Regency Mall, so in this case, if you wanted to relocate IKEA there, thats who you would have to talk to first.

Just wondering what are IKEA's local retail partners in Orlando and Tampa?  Are you claiming if Stein Mart was in, they'd be here?  If so, I'd question that given they aren't in any markets similar to Jacksonville's size.  The smallest I can find is SLC, but it's hundreds of miles from just about everything, so there's no overlap with nearby markets like Orlando.  My basic point here is Stein Mart or not, if your market isn't large enough you're not in the game.  Perhaps in 2020 we'll get there but I'm commenting on today.

2.  You asked whether walmart had improved Phillips, and I responded that they had only cleaned up the area a bit---not helped redevelop, but improved.

However, the context of the question was in regards to DT development.  The "improvement" along Philips is specifically in the site itself moreso than redevelopment along the corridor, which is what we'd be desiring as an anchor in an area like downtown.

3.  Such a strategy worked and is still working for Ben Carter, so obviously it works in Jville.  But if you look at the rest of my statement, you will see what I truly think of as the problem---my point here is to underline the fact that none of these schemes or plans are impossible.  Just impractical because they require an unlikely amount of long term focus and control in order to work, something that doesnt happen very often anywhere in the US, and almost never here in Florida.

I'm confused, what strategy worked for Ben Carter?  Developing a mall in a region where the demographics, population, roadway network, HHI, etc. aligned with the project constructed?

As I pointed out before, simply look at a google map and see if any of the resulting 'development' around the big box locations matches what you would like to see downtown, and you will find your answer if what that retailer currently does will work to accomplish what you hope.

I don't like the looks of the IKEA 'neighborhoods' that we have seen so far.

I skipped this step last night because I've already done it several times over.  I could spit you out a list of retailers in a heartbeat where the downtown area's demographics match their site selection criteria.  Most of those (IKEA would not be included) can easily fit within an urban environment as well.  However, they really aren't the problem on the design end.  Our land use policy makes it difficult for pedestrian scale projects in most areas of the city.  For example, anything along a corridor like Arlington Expressway/State & Union would have to be completely rezoned.

But that doesnt mean we have seen them all, and perhaps Ock has knowledge of something that the rest of us are missing.

I'm just having a friendly debate with Ock.  He's a big boy and should be able to prove his ultimate point one way or the other.

[thelakelander]

The land underneath the Town Center belongs mostly to John Peyton and his dad.

That is the reason it is out there.  They could deliver the footprint and they could guarantee that the infrastructure that makes it work was deployed in a reasonable time.  Before John Peyton became Mayor he was the Chairman of the Board of the JTA, and none of that development happend overnight'.  It was planned and then carefully deployed.

None of this is groundbreaking.  In fact it's actually quite typical.  However, Gate/Skinner (I don't remember which entity previously owned the parcel sold) didn't really deliver the footprint or guarantee the infrastructure.  My memory of the details is a little hazy now but Carter purchased the property and worked with Wakefield Beasley out of Atlanta on developing the footprint.  One of my co-workers from a firm I worked at in Central Florida was a PM at WB back then and this was a project he was involved with.  Before the Markets at TC was constructed, the firm I worked for at the time was hired to design a shopping center on that site for different developer.  I was the PM on that particular project.  That developer eventually passed on the 52-acre site and it was acquired by Pinehill out of Atlanta.  Pinehill then hired Phillips (also out of Atlanta) to design it.

As it happens it dovetailed nicely with the old Skinner Family ambitions for the area, which is why they donated the land to UNF in the first place.

So looking at the area as a local example of a public private partnership in which the conditions for success were created by deliberate public planning to accomodate the development is a pretty useful model.

Carter had the relationships with the retail outlets and therefore was able to book the tenants, Peyton had the land, Peyton Jr and the JEA provided the public investment into the roads, lights, exit ramps etc, and voila you have a controlled, planned, successful development that is designed to last for about the length of Carter's land lease, at which point the profits will have been exhausted with the least possible amount of investment money expended, Most of the costs will have been externalized and at the end of the lease (which is the actual governing principle, incidentally) there will be very little of value for the landowners to exploit by refusing to renew the arrangement and another massive infusion of capital on the part of the lessee.

It isnt built for neighborhood improvement, its not build to last, and its not built for any other purpose than to provide and engine of money for the handful of investors and the retailers who lease tenant space from the landlease holder.

In 40 years it will be gone.

But how that private partnership actually worked and the smoothness with which it was executed proves that Jville actually has the ability to do what it wants when it is properly motivated and there is a clear enough vision.

I guess where I'm differing on this is, and it might just be semantics on our part, but none of this is ground breaking or unique.  This is how areas like this have been developed for years.  The only thing public about this partnership is we fund the JTBs/9A's allowing property owners to flip their land at higher value to other development groups such as Ben Carter Properties.  This is pretty much the model underway with SR 9B and the Outer Beltway.

Nevertheless, when boiled down to city properties downtown, and even the example above, the city (or original property owner) isn't the one who typically identifies "preferred" retailers.  I believe doing so upfront would be a huge mistake on COJ's part and one we've made before in the past.   Issue an RFP and let the private sector create market rate projects.  For example, going back to your town center example, when I was working on the Markets at TC site, my client was bringing in a Publix.  They ended up passing on that site and Pinehill landed Best Buy and Toys R Us as their main anchors. Gate, Skinner or whomever didn't really care if it was Publix or Best Buy at the site.  The city should be the same way with properties it issues RFPs for.  That's pretty much my original reason for questioning Ock's position of making a short list of retailers at a public level instead of letting the private sector handle that.

[thelakelander]

IKEA Tempe - suburban location


Tampa - Judging from the residential blocks, the site equals roughly 12 square Tampa city blocks


While, I'm at it, here is their "urban" Brooklyn site.  Definitely delivers one of the largest surface parking lots to the neighborhood:

IKEA Brooklyn

[thelakelander]

Lake.  You seem to be agreeing with what I am writing by prefacing your post to sound like we disagree?

Ben Carter brought a set of retail relationships and some construction capital to a landownership group that had the political power to deliver infrastructure as an externalized costs.

If you agree that this is how its usually done, are you saying that its usually done that way but cant be done that way in downtown?

Im not sure Im reading your posts right.

I'm just saying the process isn't different from what Sleiman, Sembler, Regency, D.R. Horton, Camden, Post Properties, etc. does to develop a private sector development.  They acquire property that fits their product proforma and develop them.  It really doesn't matter if the original land owner has political power or not.  My main point in regards to Ock's original statement was that the original land owner is not and should not be the one predetermining the end uses. 

If I'm Skinner, I'm trying to cash in on my property.  Doesn't matter to me if Sleiman delivers a strip mall or Camden builds apartments on it.  IMO, this should be COJ's position with properties they decide to issue RFPs for.  Take the LaVilla site.  I'm sure some want to utilize the Sax Seafood space as a restaurant.  However, what happens if the private sector says knocking the building down and constructing an Aloft Hotel or CVS is a better use?  COJ shouldn't stand in the way of that private sector market rate decision because someone thinks a TGI Friday's would be cooler.

[thelakelander]

It fits like a glove at Regency, between Sears and Belk, assuming you demolish the west end of the mall.  The surface parking is already there, so at least you won't be adding acres of new asphalt as you would in just about any other Jacksonville location.

[tufsu1]

Here is what Tampa's version of DVI and JEDC has to say about IKEA in their newsletter:  Its clear that they are drinking the same koolaid as our locals, but they mention Tempe.

actually the Tampa Bay Partnership is the equivalent of our JaxUSA Partnership.....Tampa Downtown Partnership is the quivalent of our DVI

[rashad992]

regency was the spot when i was growing up. when i was little before i moved up to new york i used to think it was my very own ny.  i got a lot of memories in regency; from living in cascade apartments with my cousin, living in justina apartments with my sister then moving to bella teresa now. almost everytime i look up regency is disappearing. well the one i remember at least...

[TheCat]

Funny how things change, eh? I remember Regency being vibrant and fun when I was a kid, as well.

I also remember my last and final experience with Regency two Christmas' ago. It was smelly and sweaty. It felt like the AC was set on ghost town level and after 15 minutes we were speed walking to the nearest exit.

[thelakelander]

I remember Gateway being the place to be when I was a kid.  Whenever we'd drive through town, my parents would stop at the JCPenney and the May-Cohens that was there.  We'd also eat at Morrison's.  I only remember going to Regency once.  Visiting Jax, the highlight of my trip was crossing the river on either the Mathews or Buckman Bridges.

[Marthavmuffin]

I didn't grow up here in Jax - I came here in  the early nineties as a young adult. I remember the Arlington  expressway as a vibrant of a bit aged area where there were plenty of restaurants and stores. I ended up buying my first house in Arlington in 1999 in Alderman Park. We loved the large lots, tree lined streets, well built brick homes - many with pools.

One of my neighbors greeted me that 1st week with her prediction that Arlington would be a ghetto in ten years. Thankfully she was wrong.

I have hope for the future of Arlington and have gotten involved with my community in many ways. I worship here, I shop here and frequent as many Arlington establishments as I can. (Such as restaurants, post offices, car repair etc) I try not to go to the town center as I feel they abandoned us.

I'm also involved in my neighborhood association as well a attend Arlington based events such as Arlington Mod and more. We all need to get involved! It will take a village to nuture and work in making his community a great place to live and grow.