Hemming Plaza Tables & Chairs on their way out?

[peestandingup]

He is term limited out in two years.

But can he count that high?

[simms3]

I know what's happening here.  Most of Jacksonville is doing relatively ok despite the horrible macro policies and macro leadership coming from downtown/the state.  Apartments are going up on the SS, Riverside has become eclectic, artists are banding together at cork, San Marco is constantly improving, etc etc, yet downtown is literally getting worse and worse.

Why?  Simply because the city council is located downtown.  They feel like it's their turf to get involved in every goddamn decision, and *none* of them knows what the hell they are doing.  I say in Jacksonville's particular case, due to the uniquely bad and uniquely corrupt leadership, it would be wise to move all these people to the westside or up by the airport.  I promise you that you would see a quick and speedy turnaround.

The irony is that this [Hemming Plaza] will cost taxpayer money and at best not do a damn thing.  The westsider tea party redneck types love folks like Redman, in the ultimate hypocrisy.  The westsiders and so many people in outlying Jax are so unbelievably stupid, they deserve to work alongside Jacksonville's leaders...out there.  Perhaps then the anti-tax, anti-wasteful spending crowd can see their "conservative" city leaders at work and the wool over their eyes may be lifted!  Have Don Redman micromanage city initiatives and park planning and land use policy out on Lane Avenue!!!

Do people in this city even know they are going to spend millions of taxpayer dollars on a literally illegal GARAGE on the most prime piece of land in the city all so that a relatively inexperienced office tower private landlord won't benefit from two companies who gamed the idiots downtown by pretending they might move there??  Do the taxpayers out there even realize the city spent millions to clear a prime piece of dirt right on Main Street and build the world's worst park across from the city's $95MM investment in the Main Library, both of which have become homeless camps as a result?  And now after the city spent millions of dollars to create a situation that has been detrimental to the city's own $95MM investment, the city is going to spend more money on a solution that won't work and *will* ruin one of the only public spaces in the city with potential to serve the public?

I know I'm not even mentioning the 800 lb gorilla in the room, the now internationally infamous courthouse debacle, which involved paying too much for too much land, cost overruns that would normally get people jailed, closing one of the few direct routes to the interstates and disrupting traffic, demolishing historic contributing structures for no reason, corruption in the bid process, being held hostage by a judge that demanded fancier furniture after all the budget heartache, the world's ugliest building, sidewalks to nowhere, the exclusion of a budget for landscaping, the wrecking of a cityscape, etc etc etc.  That project alone was the result of more bad decisions, corruption and insultingly bad leadership that most cities fall victim to in an entire generation.

OMG WTF LOL ROFLMAO If anyone ever makes a documentary of city leadership in Jax and the people/voters that perpetuate it, it might be one of the most disturbing and sad documentaries of all time, right up there with Ghosts of Rwanda.

[If_I_Loved_you]

I know what's happening here.  Most of Jacksonville is doing relatively ok despite the horrible macro policies and macro leadership coming from downtown/the state.  Apartments are going up on the SS, Riverside has become eclectic, artists are banding together at cork, San Marco is constantly improving, etc etc, yet downtown is literally getting worse and worse.

Why?  Simply because the city council is located downtown.  They feel like it's their turf to get involved in every goddamn decision, and *none* of them knows what the hell they are doing.  I say in Jacksonville's particular case, due to the uniquely bad and uniquely corrupt leadership, it would be wise to move all these people to the westside or up by the airport.  I promise you that you would see a quick and speedy turnaround.

The irony is that this [Hemming Plaza] will cost taxpayer money and at best not do a damn thing.  The westsider tea party redneck types love folks like Redman, in the ultimate hypocrisy.  The westsiders and so many people in outlying Jax are so unbelievably stupid, they deserve to work alongside Jacksonville's leaders...out there.  Perhaps then the anti-tax, anti-wasteful spending crowd can see their "conservative" city leaders at work and the wool over their eyes may be lifted!  Have Don Redman micromanage city initiatives and park planning and land use policy out on Lane Avenue!!!

Do people in this city even know they are going to spend millions of taxpayer dollars on a literally illegal GARAGE on the most prime piece of land in the city all so that a relatively inexperienced office tower private landlord won't benefit from two companies who gamed the idiots downtown by pretending they might move there??  Do the taxpayers out there even realize the city spent millions to clear a prime piece of dirt right on Main Street and build the world's worst park across from the city's $95MM investment in the Main Library, both of which have become homeless camps as a result?  And now after the city spent millions of dollars to create a situation that has been detrimental to the city's own $95MM investment, the city is going to spend more money on a solution that won't work and *will* ruin one of the only public spaces in the city with potential to serve the public?

I know I'm not even mentioning the 800 lb gorilla in the room, the now internationally infamous courthouse debacle, which involved paying too much for too much land, cost overruns that would normally get people jailed, closing one of the few direct routes to the interstates and disrupting traffic, demolishing historic contributing structures for no reason, corruption in the bid process, being held hostage by a judge that demanded fancier furniture after all the budget heartache, the world's ugliest building, sidewalks to nowhere, the exclusion of a budget for landscaping, the wrecking of a cityscape, etc etc etc.  That project alone was the result of more bad decisions, corruption and insultingly bad leadership that most cities fall victim to in an entire generation.

OMG WTF LOL ROFLMAO If anyone ever makes a documentary of city leadership in Jax and the people/voters that perpetuate it, it might be one of the most disturbing and sad documentaries of all time, right up there with Ghosts of Rwanda.

"If anyone ever makes a documentary of city leadership in Jax and the people/voters that perpetuate it, it might be one of the most disturbing and sad documentaries of all time." I would love to see this happen with all the talent we have right here in Jacksonville I feel a documentary would help make the City of Jacksonville Fl better in the future! Great Post simms3!

[Bridges]

So, this doesn't even go through council?  They're directly requesting that the mayor approve this? 

Seems like that could be advantageous to us right?  The mayor is (supposedly) all about public/private partnerships, and not wasting money.  Didn't we have a conversation about the cost to remove benches and amenities?  And didn't MOCA and other people step up to help activate the plaza without public funds? 

A little bit of awareness about the two to either the mayor or the media could possibly turn the anti-plaza sentiment around. 

[urbaknight]

It worked during the Civil Rights Movement didn't it? We show the world how sucky and backwards our leaders really are. And hopefully that will embarrass them to the point where they're forced to change their ways.

[Ethylene]

I know what's happening here.  Most of Jacksonville is doing relatively ok despite the horrible macro policies and macro leadership coming from downtown/the state.  Apartments are going up on the SS, Riverside has become eclectic, artists are banding together at cork, San Marco is constantly improving, etc etc, yet downtown is literally getting worse and worse.

Why?  Simply because the city council is located downtown.  They feel like it's their turf to get involved in every goddamn decision, and *none* of them knows what the hell they are doing.  I say in Jacksonville's particular case, due to the uniquely bad and uniquely corrupt leadership, it would be wise to move all these people to the westside or up by the airport.  I promise you that you would see a quick and speedy turnaround.

The irony is that this [Hemming Plaza] will cost taxpayer money and at best not do a damn thing.  The westsider tea party redneck types love folks like Redman, in the ultimate hypocrisy.  The westsiders and so many people in outlying Jax are so unbelievably stupid, they deserve to work alongside Jacksonville's leaders...out there.  Perhaps then the anti-tax, anti-wasteful spending crowd can see their "conservative" city leaders at work and the wool over their eyes may be lifted!  Have Don Redman micromanage city initiatives and park planning and land use policy out on Lane Avenue!!!

Do people in this city even know they are going to spend millions of taxpayer dollars on a literally illegal GARAGE on the most prime piece of land in the city all so that a relatively inexperienced office tower private landlord won't benefit from two companies who gamed the idiots downtown by pretending they might move there??  Do the taxpayers out there even realize the city spent millions to clear a prime piece of dirt right on Main Street and build the world's worst park across from the city's $95MM investment in the Main Library, both of which have become homeless camps as a result?  And now after the city spent millions of dollars to create a situation that has been detrimental to the city's own $95MM investment, the city is going to spend more money on a solution that won't work and *will* ruin one of the only public spaces in the city with potential to serve the public?

I know I'm not even mentioning the 800 lb gorilla in the room, the now internationally infamous courthouse debacle, which involved paying too much for too much land, cost overruns that would normally get people jailed, closing one of the few direct routes to the interstates and disrupting traffic, demolishing historic contributing structures for no reason, corruption in the bid process, being held hostage by a judge that demanded fancier furniture after all the budget heartache, the world's ugliest building, sidewalks to nowhere, the exclusion of a budget for landscaping, the wrecking of a cityscape, etc etc etc.  That project alone was the result of more bad decisions, corruption and insultingly bad leadership that most cities fall victim to in an entire generation.

OMG WTF LOL ROFLMAO If anyone ever makes a documentary of city leadership in Jax and the people/voters that perpetuate it, it might be one of the most disturbing and sad documentaries of all time, right up there with Ghosts of Rwanda.

"If anyone ever makes a documentary of city leadership in Jax and the people/voters that perpetuate it, it might be one of the most disturbing and sad documentaries of all time." I would love to see this happen with all the talent we have right here in Jacksonville I feel a documentary would help make the City of Jacksonville Fl better in the future! Great Post simms3!

Touche! That documentary could be brilliant! What say ye film community? Who pray tell will take up that cause?

[BackinJax05]

The bums will still congregate there. They can still sit around the fountains. Save the tables & chairs. Get rid of the BUMS! 

[JeffreyS]

Again we need to reiterate this effort is not about bums, homeless or attracting "choice" park users. It is about limiting the amount of Black people near city hall. That is why all of the reasoned arguments that prove making the park worse is not the way to make it better are disregarded. The real reason can't be said aloud by those supporting it so they have to ignore the facts to achieve their true end.  I know this seems crazy considering  one of the main proponents of destroying the park is herself an African American city councilwoman.  However the truth is the truth and you have to face it to know how to win the day.  If Redman isn't called on this the park will suffer the fate he has in store for it.

I fully expect most to be afraid to face this truth even angry that it is suggested with no proof even as the park is destroyed.

[If_I_Loved_you]

We have Don Redman as a result of sour grapes between the previous councilperson, Suzanne Jenkins, and his competitor George Banks.

George and Don were running a tight race to replace Suzanne, and Suzanne was running a pretty vindictive campaign against Jerry Holland for Supervisor of Elections. (people associated with the campaign released a video showing Holland physically removing a ballot for a voter once it had already been put into the 'pile'---its technically illegal and Jerry could have faced jail time or disqualification if found guilty of 'tampering', but he was doing it at the voters request and in order to help her out so it came to nothing.)

The race itself looked like an attack on a popular member of First Baptist (holland) and ended up really bringing first Baptist out to the polls---there were a number of First Baptist candidates that year, and the cumulative effect was to bring out church affiliated voters.

No one really anticipated the effect of the Holland/Jenkins fight on getting out the FB vote, and most people expected George Banks to squeak by Redman since he had been a fairly popular man who had already served on a successful council term. (during the Delaney Years)

But when it came down to it, Suzanne had a natural antipathy for Banks for behind the scenes reasons.  She also, however, did not want to see an ignoramus like Redman get into office.

She offered Banks support (against her natural inclinations) for his campaign on the proviso that he hire a council aide of her choosing if he got elected.

Banks refused, Suzanne asked her network of supporters to stay home (couldnt bring herself to endorse Redman) and as a result of her network staying home and the additional church voters citywide resulting from her fight with Holland, Redman carried the day.

He ran unopposed in the last election (for which I could kick myself, as I toyed with the idea of running against him)

But he is term limited by law, and will be unable to run for re election in the upcoming.

"He ran unopposed in the last election (for which I could kick myself, as I toyed with the idea of running against him)" Lol I would have loved to have seen that.

[Ocklawaha]

Sorry to be a bit late on my comments but for the record, Charlie Manson was an accomplished guitarist and even played a few gigs with the Beach Boys. 

Adolph Hitler was a fairly gifted artist and at one time made a living selling his paintings - he was also a courageous and decorated soldier. Hitler earned an Iron Cross 2ND Class in an engagement near Croonaert Wood, Wytschaete.  During the fighting and under heavy fire, Hitler, stumbled across a seriously wounded officer left out in the open.  Hitler recruited the assistance of a friend and together they saved the officers life.   

Masaharu Homma, was named commander of the 43,110-man Imperial Japanese Army, 14Th Army and tasked with the invasion of the Philippines. He ordered his troops to treat the Filipinos not as enemies but as friends, and respect their customs and religion. Homma was also a well known poet and playwright, he also composed some of the songs popular in Imperial Japan. Homma went on becoming the overall commander of the Bataan Death March, he was shot as a war criminal after the surrender.

So yeah, if one looks deep enough, good things can be found in most anyone, but as the saying goes, the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

So it is with Don Redman and this insane bill before the City Council. We have a businessman/barber that fights for bicycling throughout the city then launches his own sneak attack on December 7 to carpet bomb Hemming Plaza. Historic irony!

[ronchamblin]

If_I_Loved_You..... building a day center makes sense to some degree, but doing both the table and chair removal "and" building the day center would make it almost impossible to gain any knowledge from any experiment with removing the tables and chairs.  Frustration, and ignorance as to the dynamics of a system sometimes forces the problem solver to experiment.  But the intelligent experimenter introduces only one variable at a time, else the cause of any solution remains forever unknown.
 
The removal of the tables and chairs must be called an experiment simply because nobody is sure that the removals will achieve the desired results.  The real danger is that more variables will be introduced, such as beginning a day center, introducing aggressive programming, or jailing all the vagrants and homeless.

The introduction of the additional well-meaning variables, if performed within a year of removing the tables and chairs, will definitely contaminate the experiment, and could only give false or inaccurate assumptions to those making decisions about the effectiveness of the removals.  Knowledge is needed on this continuing problem.  Not more cloudy assumptions, which only allow all to go in circles, making desperate decisions to “do something”.

If other changes are made along with the removal of the tables and chairs, and if a reduction in the unwanted elements is finally achieved, how will anyone know of the cause of the reduction?

This contaminated and therefore useless experiment will then allow those pushing for the removals to boast of their success, and to erroneously assume that the cause of success was in fact the removal.

This erroneous assumption will also prevent anyone for arguing for installing these amenities in the future.   

This is why most of us are arguing against destruction of the plaza, and for making positive moves, such as establishing a day center.  Any fool can, because of ignorance and frustration, destroy.  It is time to inject positives, or at least to avoid experiments so contaminated that they only cause further ignorance and error.

I predict that if the tables and chairs are removed, nobody will ever know if doing so accomplished the objective of reducing the population of undesirables.   

Considering that there is most likely not enough patience or practicality of mind to control the experiment by doing nothing else regarding the plaza for a period of one year so that the real consequences of removing the tables and chairs can be determined, I vote for allowing these amenities to remain, thereby forcing thought and action for positive changes, such as a day center, and further programming…. along with other positives.         

[Spence]

Like you Mr.Chamblin, I like the scientific approach.
The one alteration to the hardscape, furnishings, and amenities I AM FOR, would be grassing the portion between the west edges of the fountain square and the east side of the shelter provided by the Skyway.
bioswale anyone? lawn games?
lawn seating for live music?
Play area for the families with children?
What of that great article showing different kinds of safe simple public restrooms?
I never saw one with a diaper changing fold out table top, a defnite necessity.
Certainly a (pair of??) pay per use washroom(S) with an automatic self cleaning system would be an enormous jump in the right direction, yes?

Who really cares if a homeless person gathers enough quid to actually [mis]USE the "selfcleaning" as a washdown?

[strider]

Yesterday, I was down at Hemming Plaza watching the children build projects with Home depot.  I saw them sit with Santa and watched a video of the Mayor.  About 3/4 of the park was being used for the activity.  Which included three bus loads of kids from a local Team Up program.  The remaining quarter had a few people sitting or standing and playing chess or just talking.  The park was simply being what it is and always was supposed to be.  A meeting place for the people of Jacksonville.

What will it be after Don Redman has his way? 

[kreger]

Don Redman can't even color his own hair correctly. Removing tables and benches won't do a thing for anybody. Just like his roots, the problem will still be there.

[Jdog]

What will it be after Don Redman has his way?

An easy conversion to surface parking???