Nocatee's Town Center Revealed

[iluvolives]

I can name many n'hoods that already have, and have had for generations, the walkability/ride-ability index that Nocatee will never have.   One that immediately comes to mind is Riverside, where you can walk to a grocery store, numerous restaurants of all kinds (OK, still waiting on Indian), shops, parks, pharmacies and a hospital.  Wow, imagine that.   You might want to check it out some time.  Just head north on I-95 and get off at the Park St exit.  Or, on second thought, nevermind just stay in Nocatee and enjoy your idea of the American Dream!  I'll enjoy mine!

Cheers and Happy New Year!

Agree! I have always lived in avondale/riverside and I've always said that there aren't many n'hoods in town where you could walk to your hospital the way my mother did when she was in labor with both my younger brothers_ I've always thought that that was the epitome of "walkability".

[mtraininjax]

walkability

With real trees too, not the twigs that the developer plants after they clear cut the entire subdivision. Back in 1925, Telfair Stockton clear cut Avondale, but hey, 85 years later with mature trees everywhere, who would know this without looking at pictures?

[floridaforester]

walkability

With real trees too, not the twigs that the developer plants after they clear cut the entire subdivision. Back in 1925, Telfair Stockton clear cut Avondale, but hey, 85 years later with mature trees everywhere, who would know this without looking at pictures?

I can tell you that Riverside & Avondale was not, generally speaking, clear cut of hardwoods.  I could find you numerous 100-300 year old hardwoods in the n'hood (magnolias, live oaks, sweetgums, hickories and others).  The difference is that this area was not planted pine back at the turn of the 1900's.  Much was pasture and natural hardwood hammocks.  I'm sure most of the longleaf pine was cut and used on site.  Not much shipping of the lumber to build many of these homes, I'm assuming.  Trees are America's renewable resource!

[mtraininjax]

Avondale was only a 4 street development, Talbot, Edgewood, Avondale and Challen. Much of that original area was cut down to make way for the homes. If you disagree, check out Dr. Woods book, Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage, it shows many, many pictures of homes being built in "real" Avondale where the trees were clear-cut as mentioned above.

[north miami]

...........further proof....."Growth Management" process far from ideal.And as accommodating as DCA has been,state oversight has dashed the fortunes and dreams of many area developers and "Planners & Consultants".

As agreeable as DCA has been, not enough for some. Could this be the real headline behind "First Cast Reality Check"?? If so-worth a lawsuit.This time.......enviros would be wise to finally have enough funds bankrolled for the effort.

FLORIDA HOMETOWN the answer???   -consider the movement simply a reflection of emerging ability to finally get 'the story' .......'published'.   

[north miami]

With real trees too, not the twigs that the developer plants after they clear cut the entire subdivision. Back in 1925, Telfair Stockton clear cut Avondale, but hey, 85 years later with mature trees everywhere, who would know this without looking at pictures?
[/quote]

I can tell you that Riverside & Avondale was not, generally speaking, clear cut of hardwoods.  I could find you numerous 100-300 year old hardwoods in the n'hood (magnolias, live oaks, sweetgums, hickories and others).  The difference is that this area was not planted pine back at the turn of the 1900's.  Much was pasture and natural hardwood hammocks.  I'm sure most of the longleaf pine was cut and used on site.  Not much shipping of the lumber to build many of these homes, I'm assuming.  Trees are America's renewable resource!
[/quote]

How many are aware that T.Stockton and J.T.Butler first floated the idea of a "consolodated" Duval county.......in the mid/late 1920's......a legislative resolution voted down by Duval voters?

Imagining the Avondale area....a "mental model".......is interesting.I reside on the banks of Big Fishweir Creek....the official southwesterly boundary of RAP........on the side of a sandhill,with 'seepage slopes' and  certain elevation change on down to the creek....as seen in Jennings State Forest.
We have an elderly neighbor who recalls her children hunting the 'hood.

Brannon/Chaffee/Oaleaf (including former Trust For Public Lands parcel) "Planners & Consultants" where able to win the transformation of the area during "public workshop"  by promoting "Avondale/Riverside" type during "vision".
It will not be the same.It can not be the same.The 'best' places were selected a long time ago.

[avonjax]

I have a scary feeling that in the end much of the "Town Center" of Nocatee may never be realized, or the way it was originally envisioned....
If it is designed like the original plans it will be OK for those who want this kind of lifestyle, but if it becomes just another "sea of parking" and the usual retail suspects, it will be another north Florida failure, among many. And believe me the people who work there will not be able to afford to live there, at least not the town center portion. The live/work idea doesn't apply to the retail people.
Except for the kids of the neighborhood, the adult retail people will probably have a long commute.

[tufsu1]

FLORIDA HOMETOWN the answer???   -consider the movement simply a reflection of emerging ability to finally get 'the story' .......'published'.   

and what story would that be?  how to get to NO....if so, look no further than the opposition party in Congress 

If Amendment 4 was really about democracy and letting the people's voice be heard, than every single local comprehensive plan and plan amendment should be on referendum...instead, it is only those things that the elected officials vote YES on that would come to the voters.  If the theme is "don't trust our elected officials", then shouldn't I also get a say after they vote NO?

[donisarockiesfan]

I just can't believe the knee jerk reaction of some people regarding this or any development. Have you even been to Nocatee? Coastal Oaks was definitely not clear cut. There are trees everywhere, from beautiful old oaks to the ubiquitous pine. As to "sticks" that the developer plants, well, you clearly have not seen the trees planted in this community. Take a drive around and see if ,at the very least, you aren't impressed with the level of landscaping that the Parc Group has provided. If you are not impressed with that aspect alone then you are not in anyway objective and you would just rather have every one live in a mud hut and eat nuts and berries. I have been to Riverside previously and thought it was a nice area, but I just refuse to raise my kids in an area that I would worry on a daily basis that they may be shot.

[buckethead]

That was a mouthful Don!

Well said. I do believe that many developers are "growing up". New developments often reflect that. Many of the subdivisions within Nocatee, however, are in fact clear cut. I live right on the other side of the ditch, and have been in residential construction for some time.

The main thing that most here would likely fault Nocatee planners with is that Nocatee is designed for automotive traffic, in spite of how it is being marketed. You even have to drive to the dog walk or walking trails.

A Nocatee Trolley system could really display some foresight.

[iluvolives]

I have been to Riverside previously and thought it was a nice area, but I just refuse to raise my kids in an area that I would worry on a daily basis that they may be shot.

Talk about knee jerk reaction.

Someone should alert all the riverside residents that their children are in danger- I don't recall any reports of children being shot in the area, and as long as we are worrying about baseless fears you should also warn them that the sky is falling.

[buckethead]

I love Riverside/Avondale.

Having been shot at but once in my life, this testimonial is far from scientific.

It happened at Oak and Goodwin by some kids ranging in ages from about 9 -18. We (4 of us in our early thirties) were riding our bikes home from the Jazz festival and two young kids on bikes were mouthing off while riding in the opposite direction. One among our ranks fancied himself as the type not to be trifled with and yelled back at them. This was on riverside ave approaching our destination at oak and goodwin (exactly where my appartment was.)

Right as we turned the corner, there were about ten kids, one with a sawed off shotgun, who then opened fire on us from about fifty yards away. We scattered and met back at my apartment (cautiously) about thirty minutes later.

You can bet that experience played into my thinking when deciding whether to raise my children in Riverside, Springfield or Ponte Vedra.

[reednavy]

Umm, instead of taking cheap shots at each others locations, how about we get to talking about what this thread is really about, Nocatee and it's "town center".

[thelakelander]

Haven't been out to Nocatee since this article was completed.  Did they ever build this thing?  As for walkability, Nocatee reminds me of Oakleaf.  Both are really a collection of individual suburban developments with one way out onto an arterial street.  A few are even single access gated communities.  They don't really practice the concepts of New Urbanism, like a Celebration or Baldwin Park, although they tend to be marketed as such.  Anyway, they say 1/3 of the general population likes living in burbs, 1/3 walkable urban core areas and 1/3 really doesn't care. To each his own.

[cline]

I just can't believe the knee jerk reaction of some people regarding this or any development. Have you even been to Nocatee? Coastal Oaks was definitely not clear cut. There are trees everywhere, from beautiful old oaks to the ubiquitous pine. As to "sticks" that the developer plants, well, you clearly have not seen the trees planted in this community. Take a drive around and see if ,at the very least, you aren't impressed with the level of landscaping that the Parc Group has provided. If you are not impressed with that aspect alone then you are not in anyway objective and you would just rather have every one live in a mud hut and eat nuts and berries. I have been to Riverside previously and thought it was a nice area, but I just refuse to raise my kids in an area that I would worry on a daily basis that they may be shot.

Wow, how's the view from your office at the Parc Group?  I will say that I am impressed by the amount of money you guys are willing to spend on Nocatee Parkway and the interchange at US 1.