Hemming Plaza to be Destroyed?

[tufsu1]

Cool.  I didn't realize that Washington Square Park had reopened.  It was still under construction when I visited the city in June.

yep...it opened a few weeks before I visited in early August

[ronchamblin]

Thank goodness most of us on this forum agree with the idea of keeping the tables and benches in the park, and too, keeping as much as possible, the oak trees.  And to ban the ability to play games and cards in the park is seen by most as being a desperate move, but a stupid move.  There are better ways to resolve any problems with the park other than destroying the essence of it.

This being said, I’ve always wondered about any “real” motives for suggesting the removal of the amenities at the park, that is, by those who suggest doing so.  Does any of this have to do with ideas of white hegemony, with racial prejudices?  Is any of this related to the fact that we have in the city core, only two blocks away, one of the largest Baptist churches in the nation?  I’ve never been in the church, thank goodness, as I cannot live a lie, but if the church is not all white, is there a covert wish by many within it, that it was?

Are too many of the decisions made in our city, the ones which defy understanding by sensible folk, the ones which allow many of us to suspect hidden controlling entities, made by a group which covertly pulls a great many of the significant strings?  And are these individuals partly responsible for the city’s relative stagnation over the decades?

If there is a pressure toward stagnation, a desire for it, why would anyone desire it?  Or is it that the stagnation is a consequence of some other necessity, which must be accomplished for some reason by those pulling the strings?  And is the other necessity that of gaining and maintaining personal wealth and power, or religious impact upon the population of sinners?

Are there selfish individuals who will sacrifice the economic well-being within the city, who will sacrifice a strong vibrant city, who will allow for the jobless to remain so, so that they can establish and secure their personal wealth or power, or religious comfort?  Will some wish to trash the park for their own self-interests? 

Or is the issue more of a religious one?  After all, we should all be aware of the extremes to which religious zealots will go, if they “believe” that a particular god is on their side, and that the god desires or promotes some condition or action.  Given the great power of religious conviction, a power allowing some to achieve a quite confident position, readying them to do their god’s will, allows us to understand how they can make decisions causing the rest of us to question their sanity.  History is strewn with unique and powerful religious beliefs which have produced the most amazing and sometimes destructive behaviors, leaving the sensible and rational to run for safety until the religious, by some miracle, realize their absurdities, or simply have nothing more they wish to destroy, or no more witches to burn.   

But I digress.  Given the decades of relative stagnation in our city, our failure to achieve core revitalization, allows me to suspect that there might be a consistent, perhaps subtle, but powerful and successful, force or cause which allows for, and permits, the lack of progress.  And I suspect that if the lack of progress is not desired directly by anyone, or any group, then it must be an unfortunate consequence, a byproduct, although without intent, of the process or effort of the wealthy, the powerful, or the religious, to maintain their positions of stability and privilege in the status quo. 

Some might call the above scenario the “good old boy” syndrome of perpetual stagnation.  Wealth, power, and religion, when grouped together, can be a powerful force, and those within the citadel of power seek only to maintain the strength of it, by whatever means, even at the expense all things good and needed for the average citizen, or the city core.   

   

 

[Overstreet]

I think First Baptist Church is so big that someone involved will likely be a member of FBC but to think the church  wants to chase the homeless out of Hemming is excercising your own fears, paranoia and conspiracy fobias. 

Ever since I moved here in the 80s the city has been fooling around with Hemming Plaza .................to make downtown better.  It qualifies as green space comparitively....people use it legally. I say leave it alone.

One thing I've noticed it that there are always homeless and poor. Numbers flux a little, but they are always somewhere. We have them in Mandarin.  Sure be charitable but work on problems that can be fixed. If you want more middle class downtown it isn't Hemming Plaza that has to change. 

[ronchamblin]

I think First Baptist Church is so big that someone involved will likely be a member of FBC but to think the church  wants to chase the homeless out of Hemming is exercising your own fears, paranoia and conspiracy phobias. 

Ever since I moved here in the 80s the city has been fooling around with Hemming Plaza .................to make downtown better.  It qualifies as green space comparatively....people use it legally. I say leave it alone.

One thing I've noticed it that there are always homeless and poor. Numbers flux a little, but they are always somewhere. We have them in Mandarin.  Sure be charitable but work on problems that can be fixed. If you want more middle class downtown it isn't Hemming Plaza that has to change. 

Not inclined to carelessly fabricate or fear conspiracies necessarily.  But I'm grabbing at straws to understand what is going on, and therefore am throwing out possibilities.  The probabilities associated with the possibilities are the questions some might offer advice upon.

When you say, "leave the park alone", I agree wholeheartedly. 

Agree on your last statement.  It's much more than Hemming.  My point is that there must be something subtle, perhaps two or three things, but powerful enough to have caused over decades, and to continue to suppress to this day, the solid movement of Jax's core to one of vibrancy economic power.  Until we discover, recognize, and address those factors...... apparently we've not done so yet.... there seems to be little hope for forward motion.  Does it have anything to do with the FBC?  I don't know.  Is it possible for FBC to have some affect on the situation?  Of course.  But to what degree?  I don't know.  Zero perhaps.  Or is it 30 or 40 percent? 

The point is that I think the real cause or causes must be found and addressed.  I've been offering possibilities, things which might have been overlooked so far.  Are any of them highly probable causes?  Don't know at this point.

[John P]

It is fine to take things way like games and tables but what are they going to ADD? That is the question. You cannot take away things until tthe park becomes what you want it to. You have to add value to workers, residents, and visitors.

[thelakelander]

It's much more that Hemming.  My point is that there must be something subtle, perhaps two or three things, but powerful enough to have caused over decades, and to continue to suppress to this day, the solid movement of Jax's core to one of vibrancy economic power.  Until we discover, recognize, and address those factors...... apparently we've not done so yet.... there seems to be little hope for forward motion.  Does it have anything to do with the FBC?  I don't know.  Is it possible for FBC to have some affect on the sitiation?  Of course.  But to what degree?  I don't know.  Zero perhaps.  Or is it 30 or 40 percent? 

The point is that I think the real cause or causes must be found and addressed.  I've been offering possibilities, things which might have been overlooked so far.  Are any of the highly probable causes?  Don't know at this point.

FBC and the other churches should be viewed as economic assets, IMO.  My view on the downfall is much less sinister.  It basically revolves around the law of unintended consequences.  What made downtown originally work is that it was a self sustaining economic engine where the maritime industry met the railroad.  Both of those industries employed thousands and still do today.  Those economic engines clustered together within a compact pedestrian scale setting creating a market for nearby housing, dining, retail, industry, etc. The pedestrian scale design of the overall area made public spaces like Hemming (and even Hogans Creek) full of activity.

However, we've relocated these industries and pulled up the streetcar tracks that connected them with the city's residential districts.  Not because the desire was to kill downtown but because we wanted to clean up the waterfront (and being duped by GM).  Thousands of employees went along with those relocations and over time, the businesses they support left as well.  In the meantime, instead of addressing the basic concept of clustering complementing uses within a pedestrian scale setting, we've continually attempted to single out results of this economic scattering, we've focused on trying to resolve the unintended consequences.  We've demolished empty buildings simply because we thought this "blight" kept people from coming downtown.  We've widened roads simply because we figured high speed auto capacity kept people from downtown.  We've ripped down historical urban black neighborhoods, simply because some were intimidated by them (hmm, Hemming Plaza talk today?).  We've spent big money on sexy revitalization projects that were designed to turn their back to downtown's streets.  We've also pulled out pedestrian scale amenities because we figured since the 1980s, the homeless has become the problem keeping people away.

Millions spent on attempting to fix the unintended consequences of destroying a highly connected pedestrian scale community and not a single ounce of time spent dealing with the basic concept of developing a core for pedestrians instead of automobiles.  We're doing the same with Hemming today.  We're focusing on a result of failed policies by creating more failing strategies instead of addressing the basic needs and desires of a pedestrian scale setting.

A lot of that is planner talk but summing this up, simply program the space for a diverse population and find ways to integrate the surrounding land uses with it to stimulate pedestrian scale synergy between the space and adjacent land uses.  Snyder Memorial, City Hall, the skyway station, the old Shelby's spot?  All of these structures offer the possibility of better utilization to generate more foot traffic in the area, supporting potential programming opportunities within the park itself.

[fsquid]

Curious, has any city wanted to rip up a downtown park in the last two decades?

[thelakelander]

The City of Tampa completely shut down Herman Massey Park at the intersection of Franklin and Tyler Street in downtown a few years back. 


You can see the trees of this park in the right side of this 2008 image.

The area was completely deserted and that park was littered with homeless.  They've since remodeled it and now it includes a big Confederate Park style iron fence around it.  Now it's just empty.

The 20-year-old park may not have been as quiet as the city preferred before closing it off with a chain-link fence in August 2005. In 2004, the park made headlines on separate occasions after people were arrested for feeding the homeless.

The homeless people who often slept in Massey Park felt even more alienated when the city fenced off the grounds, lending it as a staging area for the construction crews building condos.

After $83,700 in renovations â€" plus a new rose garden, courtesy of the Tampa Rose Society â€" the city staged a grand reopening, with Iorio and other city officials taking the first public stroll through the new Massey Park.

An ornamental iron fence now surrounds the park, and it will be locked between dusk and dawn. The granite benches, formerly cracked and damaged by skateboarders, were replaced and dotted with raised metal frogs that will put a damper on skater tricks. A dog waste bag dispenser is available, encouraging downtown residents to visit with their pets.

full article: http://www.tampabay.com/news/growth/article898568.ece

[Ocklawaha]

What an inspiration from Tampa! Let's place a 20' high plexiglass wall around Hemming Plaza and declare it a "City Park Museum!" This is an idea that would get rid of the homeless crowd and preserve the park. The museum won't even need a access door, since the city has decided not to maintain right-of-ways and such anyway. We can all watch from the street as film crews for the TV series, "Earth Population Zero National Geographic ... This is LIFE AFTER PEOPLE." Hells bells, Jacksonville will be famous! 

[fsujax]

Looks like Channel 4 is airing a news special tonight on the 10 o'clock about the park. Jim Piggot reporting. should be entertaining. Has anyone else seen the previews to the story?

[acme54321]

Yep, they kept showing him getting harassed by some bum that was talking all crazy.

[ronchamblin]

Jerry Moran called last night, after seeing the individual engaging Jim Piggot.  Jerry says that the fellow talking to Jim, perhaps aggressively I don't know, was the same fellow, named Robert, who trashed my patio, dropping the pile of feces onto it.  He is also the same fellow who dumped all of our trash into someone's pickup truck parked in front of my business.  This retaliation occurred after I banned him from our place for being loud and a nuisance to my customers.  Although Robert has walked by my place recently, he avoids coming onto the premises.  Hopefully he has released all his anger, and will not trash my patio again.     

[Ocklawaha]

I think the intellectual disconnect falls with the local media and corresponding public perception of Hemming Plaza being 'Robert,' and 'Robert' being Hemming Plaza.

[urbaknight]

I saw the preview to the story. And I ask myself, could that encounter be staged? Sure there are some behavior problems, but I haven't had any real problems when I walked through. I even buy a hotdog and sit around occasionally. I think the media and the city are trying to conspire to do away with the park.

[fsujax]

I am sure piggot did something to get them talking. He loves sticking that microphone in peoples faces.