Trade freedom for security?

[Adam W]

Hey, hey, stop it!  You guys are fellow Obama worshipers!  Now hold hands and watch MSNBC.   And no more reading anything Ronald Reagan wrote, you might hurt yourselves... 

I'm not an Obama supporter. Just an FYI 

[If_I_Loved_you]

Hey, hey, stop it!  You guys are fellow Obama worshipers!  Now hold hands and watch MSNBC.   And no more reading anything Ronald Reagan wrote, you might hurt yourselves... 

I'm not an Obama supporter. Just an FYI 

Why Not Obama is a better president then George W. Bush was even if he doesn't win in Nov 2012!

[NotNow]

Hey, hey, stop it!  You guys are fellow Obama worshipers!  Now hold hands and watch MSNBC.   And no more reading anything Ronald Reagan wrote, you might hurt yourselves... 

“I believe Ronald Reagan can make this country what it once was. . . a large Arctic region covered with ice.”
Steve Martin quotes (American Comedian, Writer, Producer, Actor and Musician. b.1945)

And yet in actuality, he made this country well respected, happy, and safer.  And is now one of the most revered Presidents (not here of on MJ course, but in America).   Hmmm.

[NotNow]

Hey, hey, stop it!  You guys are fellow Obama worshipers!  Now hold hands and watch MSNBC.   And no more reading anything Ronald Reagan wrote, you might hurt yourselves... 

I'm not an Obama supporter. Just an FYI 

Why Not Obama is a better president then George W. Bush was even if he doesn't win in Nov 2012!

Yeah!  Just look at the results!  He has cut the defi...wait.
Well, he has reduced the national deb.....hold on.
OK, he has closed Guantanam....
Well, he hasn't invaded any foreign countr....
Or ordered killin..
He has opened up government and has the most transpare....um...
Unemployment is dow....
But the average income of Americans has gone u....shit
The savings ra..
He has settled the Middle Ea...
He stopped corporate giveawa.....damn
But there is no more revolving door of lobbyis...


Hey, Bush sucks!

[If_I_Loved_you]

Hey, hey, stop it!  You guys are fellow Obama worshipers!  Now hold hands and watch MSNBC.   And no more reading anything Ronald Reagan wrote, you might hurt yourselves... 

“I believe Ronald Reagan can make this country what it once was. . . a large Arctic region covered with ice.”
Steve Martin quotes (American Comedian, Writer, Producer, Actor and Musician. b.1945)

And yet in actuality, he made this country well respected, happy, and safer.  And is now one of the most revered Presidents (not here of on MJ course, but in America).   Hmmm.

Well respected to republicans, happy because the 1% became richer and safer are you kidding? The Patriot Act signed by George Walker Bush on October 26th 2001. And again by  ::)Obama on May 26th 2011 which really pissed me off but not so much that I'm still going to vote for him November 6th 2012. P.S. remember Notnow I have Freedom of speech. 

[NotNow]

Actually, we all became richer and safer under the Reagan administration.   And yes, you do enjoy freedom of speech.  I hope you remember who to thank for that.

[finehoe]

Actually, we all became richer and safer under the Reagan administration.   

Hardly.

Reagan nearly tripled the federal budget deficit. During the Reagan years, the debt increased to nearly $3 trillion, “roughly three times as much as the first 80 years of the century had done altogether.” Reagan enacted a major tax cut his first year in office and government revenue dropped off precipitously. Despite the conservative myth that tax cuts somehow increase revenue, the government went deeper into debt and Reagan had to raise taxes just a year after he enacted his tax cut. Despite ten more tax hikes on everything from gasoline to corporate income, Reagan was never able to get the deficit under control.

Unemployment soared after Reagan’s 1981 tax cuts. Unemployment jumped to 10.8 percent after Reagan enacted his much-touted tax cut, and it took years for the rate to get back down to its previous level. Meanwhile, income inequality exploded. Despite the myth that Reagan presided over an era of unmatched economic boom for all Americans, Reagan disproportionately taxed the poor and middle class, but the economic growth of the 1980′s did little help them. “Since 1980, median household income has risen only 30 percent, adjusted for inflation, while average incomes at the top have tripled or quadrupled,” the New York Times’ David Leonhardt noted.

Reagan helped create the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. Reagan fought a proxy war with the Soviet Union by training, arming, equipping, and funding Islamist mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan. Reagan funneled billions of dollars, along with top-secret intelligence and sophisticated weaponry to these fighters through the Pakistani intelligence service. The Talbian and Osama Bin Laden â€" a prominent mujahidin commander â€" emerged from these mujahidin groups Reagan helped create, and U.S. policy towards Pakistan remains strained because of the intelligence services’ close relations to these fighters. In fact, Reagan’s decision to continue the proxy war after the Soviets were willing to retreat played a direct role in Bin Laden’s ascendancy.

[NotNow]

And yes, you do enjoy freedom of speech.  I hope you remember who to thank for that.

Yes, the Creator who gave us freedom of choice, and the Founding Fathers and writers of the Enlightenment, who insisted that we were endowed with that basic right.

Why Dare!  I'm shocked that you got something right!  Congratulations!

No man can alter what God has given.

[NotNow]

Actually, we all became richer and safer under the Reagan administration.   

Hardly.

Reagan nearly tripled the federal budget deficit. During the Reagan years, the debt increased to nearly $3 trillion, “roughly three times as much as the first 80 years of the century had done altogether.” Reagan enacted a major tax cut his first year in office and government revenue dropped off precipitously. Despite the conservative myth that tax cuts somehow increase revenue, the government went deeper into debt and Reagan had to raise taxes just a year after he enacted his tax cut. Despite ten more tax hikes on everything from gasoline to corporate income, Reagan was never able to get the deficit under control.

Unemployment soared after Reagan’s 1981 tax cuts. Unemployment jumped to 10.8 percent after Reagan enacted his much-touted tax cut, and it took years for the rate to get back down to its previous level. Meanwhile, income inequality exploded. Despite the myth that Reagan presided over an era of unmatched economic boom for all Americans, Reagan disproportionately taxed the poor and middle class, but the economic growth of the 1980′s did little help them. “Since 1980, median household income has risen only 30 percent, adjusted for inflation, while average incomes at the top have tripled or quadrupled,” the New York Times’ David Leonhardt noted.

Reagan helped create the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. Reagan fought a proxy war with the Soviet Union by training, arming, equipping, and funding Islamist mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan. Reagan funneled billions of dollars, along with top-secret intelligence and sophisticated weaponry to these fighters through the Pakistani intelligence service. The Talbian and Osama Bin Laden — a prominent mujahidin commander — emerged from these mujahidin groups Reagan helped create, and U.S. policy towards Pakistan remains strained because of the intelligence services’ close relations to these fighters. In fact, Reagan’s decision to continue the proxy war after the Soviets were willing to retreat played a direct role in Bin Laden’s ascendancy.

It is true that some mistakes were made during the Reagan administration.  Like all Presidents, some good things AND some bad thiings happened during his watch.  It is my opinion that the good far outweighed the bad during Reagan's tenure.  The habit here to portray Republicans as "stupid" should not be taken seriously by anyone with a brain.  Anyone who has read the writings of Ronald Reagan will appreciate his intellect, regardless of politics. 

Reagan is remembered fondly by the nation for good reason.  His leadership restored a faith in America that had been lost at that time.  He was unabashedly patriotic, and he led from the front.  A rare quality in any politician.  I didn't always agree with him, but he had my respect.

[avonjax]

Hey, hey, stop it!  You guys are fellow Obama worshipers!  Now hold hands and watch MSNBC.   And no more reading anything Ronald Reagan wrote, you might hurt yourselves... 

I'm not an Obama supporter. Just an FYI 

Why Not Obama is a better president then George W. Bush was even if he doesn't win in Nov 2012!

Yeah!  Just look at the results!  He has cut the defi...wait.
Well, he has reduced the national deb.....hold on.
OK, he has closed Guantanam....
Well, he hasn't invaded any foreign countr....
Or ordered killin..
He has opened up government and has the most transpare....um...
Unemployment is dow....
But the average income of Americans has gone u....shit
The savings ra..
He has settled the Middle Ea...
He stopped corporate giveawa.....damn
But there is no more revolving door of lobbyis...


Hey, Bush sucks!

Yeah and the first 2 years he behaved like a president should. Work to compromise.
The last 2 years.
You gotta be kidding me.
The biggest piece of crap obstructionists, um I mean Congress in my lifetime.
And although the great things he has accomplished are ignored or despised by the left, sorry to tell you he has accomplished a great deal.
And the crowning jewel an attempt to reform healthcare, which was gutted by "the biggest piece of crap obstructionists, um I mean Congress," that many presidents have toyed with with but none had the balls to attempt.
There are others but it's a waste of my time to mention them.
And everything he has done has pissed off the right. So of course you think he's a loser.

And for the record, Bush did suck. In my opinion the worst President of my lifetime. HANDS DOWN!

[avonjax]

Actually, we all became richer and safer under the Reagan administration.   And yes, you do enjoy freedom of speech.  I hope you remember who to thank for that.

We bred the most selfish, "must have it now," generation in my lifetime. I blame the greedy climate that Regan created for everything that has wrecked the economy.   
But I will give the "bad actor," credit for realizing he had to raise taxes when the debt was going up.                           

[avonjax]

As it happens, I disagree with both of you, although Ive passed through phases where I also agreed with you both.

Ronald Reagan was great for this country's morale, but he was absolutely disastrous in terms of the outcomes of his policies, both long and short term.

I find that the thing that makes conservatives attractive--when they are attractive, is their optimistic belief in the innate goodness of the country.  It gives credence to a lot of supremely nonsensical policy, based not on the merits of the policy, but rather on the underlying sentiments of the policy maker.

Unfortunately the future is not made of the sentiments and intentions of the past, but rather the details and consequences of policy.  The only time motivation matters is in remembering the persons of history. 

I think Reagan hastened the slide of our international economic system, our internal economic parity, and the world order as he knew it.

In the last instance, that is exactly what he intended to do.  He intended to defeat the forces of revolution and totalitarian communism in the world.  As the world was a bipolar entity for those brief decades following the end of ww2 and the collapse of eastern Europe, this policy by definition was the destruction of world order.

But I dont think that he spent much time anticipating what would replace that order.

But the economic system is not Ronald Reagan's fault.  If anything, the seeds of our current decline were sowed in the fires of the Great Depression.

I should have read your post first.

[NotNow]

The way I remember it, the fall of the Iron Curtain, freedom for millions, and massive reduction of the chances of nuclear annhilation count for a lot. 

Interesting read:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielmitchell/2012/02/02/one-year-later-another-look-at-obamanomics-vs-reaganomics/

[finehoe]

Interesting read

Somewhat interesting, but by Mitchell's own numbers, the recession Obama inherited was almost four times as deep as the one Reagan caused (9.6 percentage points cumulative loss relative to previous peak versus 2.5 percentage points), so I'm not sure comparing them really tells us much.

[NotNow]

Interesting read

Somewhat interesting, but by Mitchell's own numbers, the recession Obama inherited was almost four times as deep as the one Reagan caused (9.6 percentage points cumulative loss relative to previous peak versus 2.5 percentage points), so I'm not sure comparing them really tells us much.

LOL.  Noww THAT is some pretty selective reading on your part FH!  But I suppose we all see what we want to see, huh?