Why are westside, Arlington, etc. considered to be suburbs when they are just as

[Jax101]

much a part of Jacksonville as downtown and riverside are? Orange Park is a separate city that surrounds Jax therefor it is a suburb according to the true definition.

[Debbie Thompson]

It's because they used to be separate cities. Or at least named areas of unincorporated Duval County, pre-consolidation.  I think the definition of suburbs means "extra urban" as in outside the urban core.  I've always heard the nickname "bedroom community" referring to cities like Orange Park that are within driving distance of a major city for work, but to which people return at night instead of living in the major city.

[JaxJerry]

Not to mention that Orange Park is in an entirely seperate county.

[ben says]

It's because they used to be separate cities. Or at least named areas of unincorporated Duval County, pre-consolidation.  I think the definition of suburbs means "extra urban" as in outside the urban core.  I've always heard the nickname "bedroom community" referring to cities like Orange Park that are within driving distance of a major city for work, but to which people return at night instead of living in the major city.

^ What she said.

[Adam W]

It's also worth noting that the word "suburb" has numerous connotations. Although it's often meant to refer to a town (or settlement) that lies outside the boundaries of a city or larger town, it can also mean an area that is considered outlying even if it is technically within the limits of the city.

Jacksonville only has a handful of true suburbs: the Beaches, Orange Park and northern St Johns County come to mind. But if you consider how far-flung many of the areas of Jacksonville are, they certainly are suburbs in almost every sense of the word.

[Tacachale]

Yes, there's no exact definition, especially in a city like Jacksonville where there's no official line differentiating between urban and suburban areas.

When Westside, Arlington, etc. are described as suburbs, it's not because they're not part of Jacksonville, it's because they've developed in ways that are traditionally considered "suburban". They're primarily residential communities away from the "old city", and are populated by people who commute elsewhere to work. Commercial and business areas are segregated from residential areas and are usually primarily accessible by car. In contrast, neighborhoods like downtown and Riverside have "urban" design - they have mixed uses in a single area, they're (theoretically) denser, they're walkable rather than being reliant on cars, etc.

[Adam W]

^^Yeah, what he said.

[thelakelander]

much a part of Jacksonville as downtown and riverside are? Orange Park is a separate city that surrounds Jax therefor it is a suburb according to the true definition.

Here is the definition of suburb from webster:

a: an outlying part of a city or town

b: a smaller community adjacent to or within commuting distance of a city

source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suburb
 
A suburb can be a part of a city and still be an outlying developed part of that city.  The actual traditionally developed City of Jacksonville is less than 30 square miles.  Many areas of town such as parts of the Westside and Arlington were suburbs that became "Jacksonville" with the consolidation of the city/county in 1968.  However, just because they have a Jacksonville address now doesn't necessarily make them urban, which is a characteristic of the original city's development pattern.



From a development standpoint, I typically consider every area of Jacksonville outside of the shaded pre-consolidated city limits (shown above) to be suburban.

The true "city" of Jacksonville had 200,000 residents within a +30 square mile area defined with higher density, fairly compact building fabric, gridded streets, and a mix of uses.  Area's such as Lake Shore, Arlington and Lakewood were some of Jacksonville's earliest autocentric suburbs with development characteristics opposite of the original city.  When we consolidated in 1968, that didn't mean the "city" grew.  Our municipal taxing structure changed but the actual "city" (in a built sense) remains roughly the same size, although it's declined nearly 50% in population since 1950.  Meaning Jacksonville is just like Detroit, except Detroit is larger and its suburbs are separate municipalities (like Murray Hill and Mandarin once were).  I have this debate on a regular basis with Jacksonville residents because we typically confuse "city", in terms of built environment and municipal taxation structure.  From my view, we have a city and suburbs with a shared form of government.

[Jax101]

much a part of Jacksonville as downtown and riverside are? Orange Park is a separate city that surrounds Jax therefor it is a suburb according to the true definition.

Here is the definition of suburb from webster:

a: an outlying part of a city or town

b: a smaller community adjacent to or within commuting distance of a city

source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suburb
 
A suburb can be a part of a city and still be an outlying developed part of that city.  The actual traditionally developed City of Jacksonville is less than 30 square miles.  Many areas of town such as parts of the Westside and Arlington were suburbs that became "Jacksonville" with the consolidation of the city/county in 1968.  However, just because they have a Jacksonville address now doesn't necessarily make them urban, which is a characteristic of the original city's development pattern.



From a development standpoint, I typically consider every area of Jacksonville outside of the shaded pre-consolidated city limits (shown above) to be suburban.

The true "city" of Jacksonville had 200,000 residents within a +30 square mile area defined with higher density, fairly compact building fabric, gridded streets, and a mix of uses.  Area's such as Lake Shore, Arlington and Lakewood were some of Jacksonville's earliest autocentric suburbs with development characteristics opposite of the original city.  When we consolidated in 1968, that didn't mean the "city" grew.  Our municipal taxing structure changed but the actual "city" (in a built sense) remains roughly the same size, although it's declined nearly 50% in population since 1950.  Meaning Jacksonville is just like Detroit, except Detroit is larger and its suburbs are separate municipalities (like Murray Hill and Mandarin once were).  I have this debate on a regular basis with Jacksonville residents because we typically confuse "city", in terms of built environment and municipal taxation structure.  From my view, we have a city and suburbs with a shared form of government.

Great info, thanks. If they would just have forced the developers to build in a more orderly fashioned, with straight roads and city blocks all the way through, and if zoning laws were only passed with a little more foresight, we wouldn't have this big mess we have now out in the suburbs.

[thelakelander]

^Yes, I do believe that different land use and zoning standards, along with supportive transportation infrastructure investment could have created a much more sustainable environment for Jacksonville.  Unfortunately, what's done is now done.  However, we can learn from our mistakes of the past and build upon the infrastructure we do have to create a more viable community for both the urban core and suburbs.

[Jaxson]

much a part of Jacksonville as downtown and riverside are? Orange Park is a separate city that surrounds Jax therefor it is a suburb according to the true definition.

Here is the definition of suburb from webster:

a: an outlying part of a city or town

b: a smaller community adjacent to or within commuting distance of a city

source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suburb
 
A suburb can be a part of a city and still be an outlying developed part of that city.  The actual traditionally developed City of Jacksonville is less than 30 square miles.  Many areas of town such as parts of the Westside and Arlington were suburbs that became "Jacksonville" with the consolidation of the city/county in 1968.  However, just because they have a Jacksonville address now doesn't necessarily make them urban, which is a characteristic of the original city's development pattern.



From a development standpoint, I typically consider every area of Jacksonville outside of the shaded pre-consolidated city limits (shown above) to be suburban.

The true "city" of Jacksonville had 200,000 residents within a +30 square mile area defined with higher density, fairly compact building fabric, gridded streets, and a mix of uses.  Area's such as Lake Shore, Arlington and Lakewood were some of Jacksonville's earliest autocentric suburbs with development characteristics opposite of the original city.  When we consolidated in 1968, that didn't mean the "city" grew.  Our municipal taxing structure changed but the actual "city" (in a built sense) remains roughly the same size, although it's declined nearly 50% in population since 1950.  Meaning Jacksonville is just like Detroit, except Detroit is larger and its suburbs are separate municipalities (like Murray Hill and Mandarin once were).  I have this debate on a regular basis with Jacksonville residents because we typically confuse "city", in terms of built environment and municipal taxation structure.  From my view, we have a city and suburbs with a shared form of government.

Was Mandarin ever incorporated as a separate municipality?  If so, I wonder why Mandarin chose to forsake its local government in favor of merging with Jacksonville - unlike the more independent-minded Baldwin, Atlantic Beach, Jacksonville Beach and Neptune Beach. 

[Jaxson]

much a part of Jacksonville as downtown and riverside are? Orange Park is a separate city that surrounds Jax therefor it is a suburb according to the true definition.

Here is the definition of suburb from webster:

a: an outlying part of a city or town

b: a smaller community adjacent to or within commuting distance of a city

source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suburb
 
A suburb can be a part of a city and still be an outlying developed part of that city.  The actual traditionally developed City of Jacksonville is less than 30 square miles.  Many areas of town such as parts of the Westside and Arlington were suburbs that became "Jacksonville" with the consolidation of the city/county in 1968.  However, just because they have a Jacksonville address now doesn't necessarily make them urban, which is a characteristic of the original city's development pattern.



From a development standpoint, I typically consider every area of Jacksonville outside of the shaded pre-consolidated city limits (shown above) to be suburban.

The true "city" of Jacksonville had 200,000 residents within a +30 square mile area defined with higher density, fairly compact building fabric, gridded streets, and a mix of uses.  Area's such as Lake Shore, Arlington and Lakewood were some of Jacksonville's earliest autocentric suburbs with development characteristics opposite of the original city.  When we consolidated in 1968, that didn't mean the "city" grew.  Our municipal taxing structure changed but the actual "city" (in a built sense) remains roughly the same size, although it's declined nearly 50% in population since 1950.  Meaning Jacksonville is just like Detroit, except Detroit is larger and its suburbs are separate municipalities (like Murray Hill and Mandarin once were).  I have this debate on a regular basis with Jacksonville residents because we typically confuse "city", in terms of built environment and municipal taxation structure.  From my view, we have a city and suburbs with a shared form of government.

Great info, thanks. If they would just have forced the developers to build in a more orderly fashioned, with straight roads and city blocks all the way through, and if zoning laws were only passed with a little more foresight, we wouldn't have this big mess we have now out in the suburbs.

I doubt that the county government would have had as much foresight with regards to planning before 1968.  You can observe examples of this disconnect along the pre-1968 city limits.  I notice a subtle shift of land use along Cassat Avenue even now. 

[thelakelander]

Mandarin became an incorporated town around 1841.  However, I believe it had dissolved before the 1968 merger.

[BackinJax05]

It's because they used to be separate cities. Or at least named areas of unincorporated Duval County, pre-consolidation.  I think the definition of suburbs means "extra urban" as in outside the urban core.  I've always heard the nickname "bedroom community" referring to cities like Orange Park that are within driving distance of a major city for work, but to which people return at night instead of living in the major city.

Oh for the days when Arlington WAS a suburb. Today, sadly, its THE GHETTO,EAST

[I-10east]

What alot of people think as 'suburban, I think of as urban residential. It's hard to justify something being 'suburban' when you have sidewalks on both sides of the street, neighborhood food stores throughout, and freaking multiple bus lines, not exactly typical soccer mom paradise. For instance, to me there's nothing suburban about an area like Cleveland Rd & Moncrief.