Mobility Plan Moratorium a failure as St. Johns County overtakes Duval

[fsquid]

why do those golf courses have to be so expensive.

[Ocklawaha]

why do those golf courses have to be so expensive.

Have you ever bought sod for a lawn? How about maintained one? Imagine all of that expense coupled with a clubhouse, golf carts, employees, etc. are all carried on the backs of either the homeowners, or in the green fees. No matter how you cut it, it ain't cheap.

[fsquid]

that's why I like my $40 golf!

[simms3]

As everyone has stated the new development is in SJC for fundamental reasons, nothing to do with taxes or fees or lack thereof.  For all the northerners moving to SJC, fees could double essentially tacking a potential 5-10% premium on housing prices and they would still be saving a boatload due to the insanely low housing costs and low property taxes/no state income.

In addition, public schools are the big draw.  A) Good private schools in Duval are an additional $10-$20K per student per year.  In larger/northern cities these same quality schools would run $20K-$40K per student per year (so essentially the private schools in Duval are a relative bargain for the few who are willing to afford it).  SJC is one of the few counties in FL where many of the public high schools can actually stand toe to toe with your "average" northern public school, and most families are willing to go that route.

Again, if we were attracting more single young professionals, Duval County would see more growth as no single working 30 year old would want to move to SJC to some "community" (granted there are actually a lot of young people in PVB).

Families move to NE FL.  They specifically move to SJC for various fundamental reasons.  Developers follow the growth.  I wish more developers/the city tried to influence the growth and precede it/direct it responsibly.

[cline]

Again, if we were attracting more single young professionals, Duval County would see more growth as no single working 30 year old would want to move to SJC to some "community" (granted there are actually a lot of young people in PVB).

Families move to NE FL.  They specifically move to SJC for various fundamental reasons.  Developers follow the growth.  I wish more developers/the city tried to influence the growth and precede it/direct it responsibly.

Completely agree.  The public school issue is a big one.  Young families moving to NE FL will move to SJC because they can send there kid to an "A" rated school for free.  Like you said, they would have to shell out thousands each year to send there kid to private school in Duval County. Not worth it to them when there is ample, relatively cheap housing with great schools a short drive down I-95.  The problem is the rest of the taxpayers will be footing the bill for the needed infrastructure improvements to accommodate this "growth".

The Duval County school system is a problem that needs to be addressed very soon.

[fsujax]

I wonder how many multi-family residences are being constructed in St Johns County? They seem to be popping up all over Duval. I have to say it is great to Joost talking about infilling the urban core and Downtown.

[Tacachale]

^Northwest St. Johns and Ponte Vedra have become your classic upscale bedroom communities: plentiful newly-constructed single-family homes for family living, low crime rates, high performing schools - and near-total homogeneity. This is a huge part of their success and their draw - in Julington Creek elective suburbanites can live near people who share their interests and concerns (for instance in their childrens' success at school).

A diverse county like Duval will never compare to a homogenous suburb, however we can see how much of St. Johns' success in its stronger areas has come from their willingness to invest in themselves. That's a principle any community can apply.

[dougskiles]

Good points.  I always have to remind myself that it isn't an "us' against "them" situation with St Johns County.  They offer a lifestyle that frankly, Duval is going to have a hard time competing with.  However, we can offer a lifestyle that they can't provide, either.  Diverse cultural activities, historic neighborhoods and walkable mixed use neighborhoods to name a few.  Some might argue that theirs are walkable just because they have pedestrian trails and are safe to walk in - however, I don't know of many that have commercial areas within walking distance.  Make no mistake that living in those parts is completely dependent on an automobile.

[bill]

The EVIL developer is going to pass the Tax onto the landowner, business(higher lease rate), customer(if rent is higher it raises the cost of doing business) and homeowner. You can call it whatever you want but it is a tax. As usual, you try and put it on one group but it gets passed on to the consumer. This is very basic stuff but if it does not fit your model just go back to your oh so broad thinking.   

Which Evil Developer.

Is there an actual developer or is this developer in the abstract?

What proofs do you have that the developer is 'evil'?

Which "Tax"?

Which Landowner?  Which Developer?  Is the developer separate from the 'landowner'?  Which customer?

How will it be 'passed on'?  How will you guarantee that it will be passed on?  How does an extra tax determine what the market is willing to pay for a property?  Will this real or imaginary developer actually, provably charge less in the absence of the tax, even though the market is willing to pay more?  If so, is the entire theory of supply and demand wrong then?

Who exactly is calling the above mentioned 'tax' something besides a tax?  Is there really no difference between a tax, a fee, a fine or any other revenue? 

Who exactly are you claiming 'usually' tries puts a tax on one group but it lands on another?

Please prove that this person or group 'usually' does this.

If you cannot answer and prove any of these questions in a concrete way, then they obviously are not facts.  They are opinions.

And you literally cannot tell the difference between the two.

Stick to theories and your "big ideas". Reason and reality are not your strong suit.

[Ocklawaha]

Some might argue that theirs are walkable just because they have pedestrian trails and are safe to walk in - however, I don't know of many that have commercial areas within walking distance.  Make no mistake that living in those parts is completely dependent on an automobile.

ftp://ftp.bocc.co.st-johns.fl.us/gis/media/MapMart/GBT_MasterPlan.pdf

This is quite true of the current situation in Rivertown, however their plans call for a 'trunk line' bike and canoe trail running north south from their to Julington Creek Plantation. They are currently moving so much dirt over there it's hard to figure out what it's going to look like, I do know that a nice chunk of the trail is complete within the community already across the pond (east) from the new amenity center. Rivertown's major drawback, at least until they develop retail, and office space is that there is NOTHING for miles in any direction.

WGV is quite different, we have a small but growing, diverse set of retail, hotel, recreation and office spaces. While we are connected to The Shops at Murabella and WGV village by a nice system of paved (and well used) sidewalks, so far the bike trails haven't really materialized. This leaves the square mile of home in Heritage Landing cut off from the shopping areas. A new widened segment of SR16 has the typical Florida bicycle suicide lanes without any physical separation from road traffic. This is a model BTW that I DO NOT SUPPORT. The new segment of 16 does have excellent sidewalks on both sides. When it is finally stretched to 13, then Heritage Landing's siege will be lifted. Until then our 100's of walkers and joggers go back and forth to the end of the sidewalk near CR13 and SR16.

Nocatee is a different story:

The Nocatee Greenway consists of more than 5,000 acres of connecting parks, protected wildlife corridors, and wetlands preserves. The Greenway Trails have been planned for everyone to enjoy the beauty of this preserved land. You'll find jogging and biking trails along paved roadways. There are unpaved nature trails meandering through woods and parks for the more adventuresome. Electric cart paths will connect all of the neighborhood villages with the Town Center. The first three (3) miles of the Nocatee Greenway Trails were completed in February of 2010. These trails connect Riverwood, Coastal Oaks, Tidewater and Willowcove to the Splash Water Park, the Nocatee Community Park, and the Town Center.

Palencia is rather vague:

The Nature of Things: Looking to commune with nature? There are extensive walking trails, including a boardwalk across the marsh, and plenty of pocket parks that lend natural character via trees, shrubs and plants.

They do have a nice network of bike trails and one can get from most of the neighborhood to the Town Center or to the suburban shopping centers along US 1 via a good system of trails, but like WGV, currently there are still holes in the system and the finished product is a question.

WGV, PALENCIA, NOCATEE, and JULINGTON CREEK, all have Town Centers and at least some sort of access via a trail system. Rivertown is a project UNDER CONSTRUCTION. I'll keep y'all posted...

Oh and for what it's worth, the comment about not supporting bike lanes might beg a bit of explanation. I've always wondered why the worlds other transportation geeks haven't sat down and done the math. Here is how I see it. 1 bicycle + one 40 mph pickup truck = 1 dead bicyclist. 1 bicycle + 3 pedestrians = 4 bumped and bruised SURVIVORS. Seems to me that ANY idea of keeping bikes off of grade separated sidewalks in rural or suburban settings is a recipe for disaster. All bike trails (and yes they should be away from pedestrians IF POSSIBLE) should be separate from automobile traffic. 

'

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Oh and for what it's worth, the comment about not supporting bike lanes might beg a bit of explanation. I've always wondered why the worlds other transportation geeks haven't sat down and done the math. Here is how I see it. 1 bicycle + one 40 mph pickup truck = 1 dead bicyclist. 1 bicycle + 3 pedestrians = 4 bumped and bruised SURVIVORS. Seems to me that ANY idea of keeping bikes off of grade separated sidewalks in rural or suburban settings is a recipe for disaster. All bike trails (and yes they should be away from pedestrians IF POSSIBLE) should be separate from automobile traffic. 

So why not widen sidewalks to accomodate cyclists and add the bike lane markings? 

Or for the more adventurous, add a seperate designated 'high speed cyclists only path' that's only 3' wide, has sweeping curves and a 6" drop-off on either side. 

[wsansewjs]

Can someone tell me why "majority" of the cyclists DON'T obey the road laws and rules? I thought in the state of Florida, a bicycle is considered as legal as a motorized vehicle, and the bicycle rider must obey the same as the motorized drivers.

Even, if we build bike lanes, then when a red light turns red and the non-bike vehicles all stop, would a cyclist just zoom on past the intersection in the bike lane?

-facepalm-

-Josh

[Tacachale]

It's certainly not a "majority".

At any rate cyclists need to follow the rules of the road. At the same time, the rules and the road need to be designed to take into account this type of transportation. The failure to do so is the primary reason for the trouble.

[wsansewjs]

It's certainly not a "majority".

At any rate cyclists need to follow the rules of the road. At the same time, the rules and the road need to be designed to take into account this type of transportation. The failure to do so is the primary reason for the trouble.

From my perspective and experience, roughly 80% of the cyclists I have witnessed while walking on the side of the road or sidewalk or riding in the car, I have seen the cyclists breaking the road laws.

Now, I do agree with you that the road system and its rules needs to incorporate the cyclists and their bicycles respectively, and ALSO the walking people.

The REAL victims out of all of this mess is the pedestrians. Cyclists and motorists have the mentality of "ruling" the roads including not respecting the pedestrian's right of the way, or simply an act of ignorance by zoom by or aggressively pose a danger to the pedestrians even the pedestrians were abiding by the law via crosswalk or similar scenarios.

Again, this is my own personal opinion and feedback from my own personal experience. I am legally blind, so I had to play the role of a pedestrian. Please don't feel bad for me. -rolls eyes around-

-Josh

[JFman00]

Can someone tell me why "majority" of the cyclists DON'T obey the road laws and rules? I thought in the state of Florida, a bicycle is considered as legal as a motorized vehicle, and the bicycle rider must obey the same as the motorized drivers.

Even, if we build bike lanes, then when a red light turns red and the non-bike vehicles all stop, would a cyclist just zoom on past the intersection in the bike lane?

-facepalm-

-Josh

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/05/why-theres-no-war-between-drivers-and-cyclists-netherlands/1955/