Is Riverside/Avondale Ready For Mellow Mushroom?

[fsujax]

I dont think Love really fully grasps the "unintended" consequences his ordinance could have.

[JeffreyS]

Mellow Mushroom seems like a done deal.  My biggest worry with the new restrictions is that they make using existing historic building stock less attractive.

Define less attractive.

Beauty is in the eye and all that....  Don't you think the new renovations of the old building stock will be... beautiful?



Not meaning to pick on you, Jeffery, it's just that I'm in disgust with the whole situation and I don't see them (RAP, existing Merchant Assoc., Jim Love, etc...) making anything better - so backwards thinking.

I simply mean the incentive for using historic building stock would be less. If you are a restaurant evaluating sites in Riverside you get less benefit under the proposed law than under the existing overlay.

It would be very cool in the old Fuel space in 5 points...

That would have been great. Two of the Mellow mushrooms in NE FL are in the same parking lot as Movie Theaters and we like to go to MM before or after a flick.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I knew exactly what you meant, and when you construct the new building, you're going to have to make room somewhere to meet your parking requirement for the footage over the demolished structure.

So where do you put the parking lot? 

Where the buildings that no one wants to renovate anymore due to the stringent requirements for moving into existing space.

[thelakelander]

My biggest worry with the new restrictions is that they make using existing historic building stock less attractive.

Mellow is not affected by the moratorium (the gas station has been purchased and the application has been submitted), but yes the legislation that may get voted on tonight does nothing to address the massive hole in the Overlay that encourages developers to tear down non-contributing structures (many built in the 1920s) to avoid parking requirements... and goes so far as to make it less attractive to use contributing strucutres for certain kinds of businesses even though current zoning laws do not (nor should) restrict their use.   

Yes, this is the scary by-product that we won't realize how bad it is until some high-profile project taking advantage of the loopholes smacks us across the face.  For those who think it can't happen, just look at Warren Motors.  That entire dealership, which takes up a full city block, is about to be demolished for a McDonald's and Family Dollar.  If it can happen on a property that large on State Street, it can certainly take place in Riverside.

[fieldafm]

My biggest worry with the new restrictions is that they make using existing historic building stock less attractive.

Mellow is not affected by the moratorium (the gas station has been purchased and the application has been submitted), but yes the legislation that may get voted on tonight does nothing to address the massive hole in the Overlay that encourages developers to tear down non-contributing structures (many built in the 1920s) to avoid parking requirements... and goes so far as to make it less attractive to use contributing strucutres for certain kinds of businesses even though current zoning laws do not (nor should) restrict their use.   

Yes, this is the scary by-product that we won't realize how bad it is until some high-profile project taking advantage of the loopholes smacks us across the face.  For those who think it can't happen, just look at Warren Motors.  That entire dealership, which takes up a full city block, is about to be demolished for a McDonald's and Family Dollar.  If it can happen on a property that large on State Street, it can certainly take place in Riverside.

Consider something like the old First Guaranty HR building (CenterState HQ is on JTB/95 now, the King Street bldg will be just another branch and no longer the banks' HQ... meaning there is an incentive to sell unecessary buildings and/or land) being bought, torn down and replaced by a McDonalds... wouldn't that be awesome?    No?  Well, it would be completely legal while other restaurants that would contribute to the fabric of the neighborhood would face unfair restrictions. 

That's the law of unintended consequences and it WILL (not IF) happen in Riverside/Avondale if this law passes (sadly it likely will).

Laws formed from knee jerk reactions instead of from the careful consideration of the facts and a study of the opportunities offered from sensible alternatives are very harmful to our community.  I am sorry to say, this moratorium is one of those laws.

[JeffreyS]

This is a tough one but likely when the bad outcomes from this bill start RAP and the city council will move to correct. Sadly they have to put their hand in the door before they believe it will hurt when it is slammed.

You could understand if almost all of the contributing historic stock was already being made use of.

[tufsu1]

I think CM Love understands more than many are crediting him with....which is why he's responding to some very vocal constituents in his district by putting forth this legislation.

[Bewler]

If large restaurants like Mojo 4 are pulling in cars from far away places like Orange Park, then that is the problem. Another giant restaurant like Mellow Mushroom, especially a national chain, will pull in more "outsiders" with cars. These "outsiders" will never take a bus to get here. They see the Shoppes of Avondale as just another Town Center to drive to. If Mellow Mushroom wants to be helpful, they should open in a real dead spot, not crowded little Avondale. What about opening next to the John Gorrie condos?

This seems to be the most misguided fear about this whole issue. People are not going to come flocking in from all sides of town to come to a Mellow Mushroom in Avondale.

That’s like saying “Hey did you hear about the Mcdonalds in Palatka? The one that’s completely and totally identical to all of the other ones across the nation? We should drive there and check it out!” No one far away from Avondale is gonna care about this MM. There’s already several throughout the city.

Orsay, The Brick, Biscotti’s, Town… these are the exclusive and unique restaurants that “outsiders” will actually make an effort to check out. These places have been established for a while now. Are they currently causing a problem? And not to mention... outsiders? Isn’t that kind of a archaic way of viewing things? Oh no. People are coming in from all over the place and giving their money to our local businesses. What a dilemma!

[KEGreene1]

[/quote]
Orsay, The Brick, Biscotti’s, Town… these are the exclusive and unique restaurants that “outsiders” will actually make an effort to check out. These places have been established for a while now. Are they currently causing a problem? And not to mention... outsiders? Isn’t that kind of a archaic way of viewing things? Oh no. People are coming in from all over the place and giving their money to our local businesses. What a dilemma!
[/quote]

So glad somebody finally said the obvious.  There is a MM in Fleming Island, at the Beach and Southside.  Why would those folks drive in?

[BrooklynSouth]

If large restaurants like Mojo 4 are pulling in cars from far away places like Orange Park, then that is the problem. Another giant restaurant like Mellow Mushroom, especially a national chain, will pull in more "outsiders" with cars. These "outsiders" will never take a bus to get here. They see the Shoppes of Avondale as just another Town Center to drive to. If Mellow Mushroom wants to be helpful, they should open in a real dead spot, not crowded little Avondale. What about opening next to the John Gorrie condos?

This seems to be the most misguided fear about this whole issue. People are not going to come flocking in from all sides of town to come to a Mellow Mushroom in Avondale.

That’s like saying “Hey did you hear about the Mcdonalds in Palatka? The one that’s completely and totally identical to all of the other ones across the nation? We should drive there and check it out!” No one far away from Avondale is gonna care about this MM. There’s already several throughout the city.

Orsay, The Brick, Biscotti’s, Town… these are the exclusive and unique restaurants that “outsiders” will actually make an effort to check out. These places have been established for a while now. Are they currently causing a problem? And not to mention... outsiders? Isn’t that kind of a archaic way of viewing things? Oh no. People are coming in from all over the place and giving their money to our local businesses. What a dilemma!

I said "if" cars are being pulled in from other neighborhoods. I don't really know if they are. How many people who go to Brick or Mojo 4 on a Saturday night just walk there from three blocks away and how many drive in from, say, Orange Park? Large chain restaurants with parking lots and national name recognition/marketing power are more likely to bring in non-locals which means cars, cars, cars.

I'm pro-development and pro-walkability, which to me means small stores and narrow streets. It means I can leave my house and do what I want without getting in a car or feeling like a car might run me over. It usually means small parking lots, too. If we have to build giant parking lots or parking garages in Avondale to accomodate people driving in from around Jacksonville, it will destroy the neighborhood. And locals aren't used to strangers walking through the streets in front of their houses late at night, to and from their parked cars. That is what "downtowns" historically were for. The Shoppes of Avondale is not downtown.

Maybe the answer is permit parking for residents, parking tickets for violators, and valet parking for those who need to drive in. When I was a teenager in Virginia trying to go out at night in Washington DC, this type of policy encouraged us to car pool, even though we all had cars.

[KEGreene1]

Maybe the answer is permit parking for residents, parking tickets for violators, and valet parking for those who need to drive in. When I was a teenager in Virginia trying to go out at night in Washington DC, this type of policy encouraged us to car pool, even though we all had cars.

Another great example!  It is 2012, there are examples all over the country of how people overcome these issues.  I would rather have someone using the existing property and not tearing it down and building a 7/11. 

[Bewler]

Large chain restaurants with parking lots and national name recognition/marketing power are more likely to bring in non-locals which means cars, cars, cars.

See, I don't think that's true. I wouldn't drive to the Mojo's in Avondale because I'm closer to the one on University. Just like how if I ever felt like going to Starbucks, I wouldn't drive to the one in Riverside because there's probably several other ones closer. Unique landmark type places are more likely to get people to drive across town.

Just ask Mayport.

[thelakelander]

If you do residential only permit parking on public streets, you definitely would need to charge the users something.  If you don't, you're passing the costs of implementing and maintaining the system on everyone else.

[Ocklawaha]

If large restaurants like Mojo 4 are pulling in cars from far away places like Orange Park, then that is the problem. Another giant restaurant like Mellow Mushroom, especially a national chain, will pull in more "outsiders" with cars. These "outsiders" will never take a bus to get here. They see the Shoppes of Avondale as just another Town Center to drive to. If Mellow Mushroom wants to be helpful, they should open in a real dead spot, not crowded little Avondale. What about opening next to the John Gorrie condos?

What bus? We've got a plan in place for a streetcar line and streetcars WILL get both outsiders and insiders out of their cars. The success of a streetcar, the vehicle that built the neighborhood in the first place, could be greatly multiplied with a terminus in a location with a fairly large parking facility. Sports district to FSCJ Kent or Roosevelt Plaza perhaps would be a good start...

OCKLAWAHA

[Gators312]

I'm pro-development and pro-walkability, which to me means small stores and narrow streets. It means I can leave my house and do what I want without getting in a car or feeling like a car might run me over. It usually means small parking lots, too. If we have to build giant parking lots or parking garages in Avondale to accomodate people driving in from around Jacksonville, it will destroy the neighborhood. And locals aren't used to strangers walking through the streets in front of their houses late at night, to and from their parked cars.

You are most likely gonna be run over by one of your fellow Avondale/Riverside residents.   They make the majority of the trips in your neighborhood.