Mothballing: simple costs

[Timkin]

First off Kaiser, I began my mission to save it in 2006.  You're saying a decade ago there was money available to demolish it.  That was before I was ever in the picture.   Doug Milne, the owner STATED PUBLICLY OVER AND OVER that he did not want the building demolished.  So please get your facts straight. With regard to the rest of your statement I /WE  are seeking a way to make the building viable. I would PREFER to do it in such a fashion so as not to ask for a penny from taxpayers, whereas if you get your way and it is torn down , this will cost the taxpayers.   

I agree with Ock's proposal for the building to be a station . Will it happen ? I have no idea.

I will take blame /credit where it is due but  I cannot take the blame for something a decade ago. I had nothing to do with that.  IF you are referring to the 2006 developer who wanted to demo it, then I will gladly raise my hand.  If I actually was instrumental in getting rid of them IM HAPPY ABOUT THAT.   

I want the building saved, preferably NOT at the expense of the taxpayer. I cannot put it any simpler than that.   But this is personal. for whatever reason you make me out to be the badguy.  The bad guys are the people who neglected it , vandalized and destoyed it.  I WORKED MY ASS OFF on that property for a couple of years trying my level best to make it better along with the help of some very kind hearted alike minded volunteers.  I wont apologize to you or anyone for trying to make it better and I will continue to whether you agree or not.

[Timkin]

I wish that I could discuss my knowledge of that project.  I really do but I cannot.

Rather than pushing for the expenditure of public dollars, how about you put a group together and raise the money to purchase and rehab the property yourself???  Why be a hindrance to others' plans for the property.  If you think it can be rehabbed and turned around, go for it.  I am sure you and Stephen have all sorts of good ideas for its use.

There was private money more than a decade ago you say.  But where would you propose this money would come from now, Kaiser?

And what group is looking to redevelop on that property that cant find plenty of empty lots nearby?

Im not concerned about School Number 4 in particular.  There are people who love that building and who defend it.  My responses have mostly been on the larger point.  This mentality that we somehow have to prune building stock as though it were a particularly sensitive grape vine is just ridiculous, in my opinion, and a piss poor stewardship of the public purse and power.

You are making my point for me.  Yes, there was private money a decade ago.  Folks like Timkin killed that.  So, now what do we do?  Mothball it?  Great.  I has not been used for 40+ years.  Should we mothball with public money for another 40+ years to wait for a solution that will never come?

I-10 and I-95 killed that building years ago.  Timkin and his ilk killed any private projects on the property a decade ago.  How about Timkin and friends take their shot at making the property work for the community since they have been so successful in roadblocking others.

huh?

Sorry, but you arent making any sense at all.

And you still havent answered any of the questions.

Are you willing to pitch in for the lost tax revenue until something replaces the building after it is demolished?  Or are you just expecting everyone else to pitch in and cover that loss?

See if you can follow this: private money was there, you folks killed it, now the public will have to pick up the tab (whether its demolition of mothballing).

What lost tax revenue?

Define "you folks", Kaiser.    Ida Stevens foundation bought the building around 1980 intending to make it residential for seniors.  They accomplished this successfully with Duval High School downtown.  After they bought it, subsidies and tax credits for the project went away.  Is that my fault? Is that our fault , whomever you are referring to as "you folks"?  I don't see how, but if you know something I am failing to remember, feel free to correct me. I don't recall a mention from that time of them wanting to demolish the building. I think their intent was to use it.

The next development I know about was the "Lytle Place Condominiums" project , around 2000.  In this plan ( I have a copy of the floor plans of this project)  The plan called for restoration , not demolition of the School and in fact , altering the basement of the building to use for residential parking and resident storage.    I believe in this instance some of the units actually pre-sold.   As I understand it , what axed that project was the forthcoming replacement of the Fuller Warren Bridge and the approaches to the bridge, and the current fly-over for I-10 from I-95.  When purchasers learned about this expansion and how close this would come to the front of the building, they backed out.  The plan fell through. I had no involvement in PS#4 at that time.  Heck, at that time I did not even live in Jacksonville, I was residing in Winter Park. So the decade ago plan that I supposedly was involved in axing is simply not true.   

The next proposal .. The one where I did speak up was in 2006.  In this plan the developer wanted to demo the School and put a modern structure in it's place , citing that it was too expensive to save.  To quote the developer at the time, the price tag for renovation "approached" 8 to 9 million dollars.  They applied to HPC for demoltion. HPC denied the request.  They then appealed to City Council .  Initially , LUZ approved the demolition with condition.  PLENTY of people , not just myself stepped in then.  We did not ask for the project to be scrapped, we asked for the building to be SPARED and included in the project.  The developer appealed to City Council and it remained deferred and tabled for 2 plus years. Eventually, City Council kicked the bill out, re-referring the appeal to HPC. I am sure the developer knew that if HPC declined them once, they would again so they backed off on the plan to demolish, HOWEVER, they stated over and over that the plan was still in place, and the last article that was published in the Times Union about their plan , indicated that the project could begin as soon as in 2 months.  That was 2008.  The same year I began , with permission from the owner ,under a hold-harmless agreement to do cleanup and maintenance free of charge to the property.  I continued this until I began having health issues and could not do the work.  In the meantime ,for whatever reason , this plan also fizzled out. If that is my fault, I am all ears.  PLEASE CLARIFY how you feel that the failure of the only 3 projects I have ever known of falling through is the direct result of my opposition to the School being demolished.

You are misguided , at best on your thoughts.  All I have tried to do is save a historic building. It matters to me. If it does not matter to you , fine. I am not asking for your help.   But please...with all this top secret information you claim to have , but can't publicly speak about , get your facts straight when it comes to me.

Lastly I will state , in 2010 a  Ventura, Fl -based LLC purchased the School from a tax-sale.  As they now are the owners of the school , just as with previous owners, THEY SHOULD be the ones mothballing it ,maintaining it, etc.  I made the same offer to them as with the previous owner, free of charge, just let me go and do what I can do to make the place better.  NEVER EVER any cooperation from them.  Fast forward to 2012. They have done zilch, zero, nothing , Nada to help, maintain, mothball , demolish, not even pay taxes or the accumulating nuisance fees that have mounted on the property.  This too , must somehow be my fault but the reality is ,  It is not.

If you have something that you can pin the blame on me about , feel free to fire away.  I am pretty tired of being condemned for trying to continue work that others have tried and failed, but I have no intention of stopping.

[Debbie Thompson]

Since this thread has moved into a discussion about PS4, would it be possible to take the latest couple pages of PS4 posts and move them over to the PS4 thread in the Riverside forum, so we are all discussing PS4, and the solutions for it, on one thread, for the sake of continuity?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Timkin,

Is it possible that someone can discuss the Annie Lyle without it turning into a public therapy session about your feelings of persecution?

It's really off putting, and distracting from the actual subject.

Just sayin.

Yet you allow Noone to insert his message into every topic.....

Both of these guys have poured heart and soul into their respective projects.   I feel funny even typing this, but for you to belittle them.... c'mon - you're better than that. 

It's like calling out Ock for going railroad.  Tufsu for going Winn Dixie  .   Lake for going holistic.  Faye for going retarded (OK, low blow that's uncalled for don't delete it, just strike through it - like it never happened)

Tim & John have literally spilt blood for their causes.  I say - REDACT!  PS#4 is his ONLY subject 78% of the time.   

[Timkin]

Timkin,

Is it possible that someone can discuss the Annie Lyle without it turning into a public therapy session about your feelings of persecution?

It's really off putting, and distracting from the actual subject.

Just sayin.

Didn't realize that was the message I was putting out, Stephen.  Esp when I am blamed for events I had nothing to do with.

Sorry. Will try to be more careful in my wording.

and with all due respect I agree with Debbie. Sorry for my part in this going completely off topic.  Really I think I have said all I can say on the matter. Seemed to me that I was appointed (by a poster whom I will not name) as the culprit behind preventing a privately-paid for demolition a decade ago . There is not an ounce of truth to that.  I simply was defending my position . Surely Stephen, you would do the same?

[Timkin]

With any and all due respect,  My purpose here is to stand up for what I think is right.  I think I understand what you are getting at.  I don't know M-train personally, Nor Kaiser, Nor even you, Stephen.

My intention is to get PS #4 saved.  That should be the most obvious point that I try to make.  If by doing so I have to take jabs from M-train , Kaiser and who ever else , so be it.

I hope it is saved.... and that I can move on to another adventure.

No regret whatsoever up to now.

[Debbie Thompson]

Since this thread has moved into a discussion about PS4, would it be possible to take the latest couple pages of PS4 posts and move them over to the PS4 thread in the Riverside forum

I'm all for saving PS#4. My love affair with that building began in 1973 when I worked in the brand new building across I-95 from it, originally the Haskell Building. It was the company I worked for, Treco, that arranged the limited partnership for Ida Stevens Foundation on the Stevens Duval Apartments.  I was thrilled when they bought the school because I knew it would be saved...until the incentives went away.  I inquired about the condos for our residence.

That said, I still think the PS#4 discussion pages belong in the Riverside section, where I will happily go give my 2 cents on the subject.  I could be wrong, but my thought is people don't look for PS4 discussions in the Springfield topic.

[Timkin]

 It was never my intent to hijack this thread with an ongoing discussion about it. For my part in this , I apologize Debbie.

The endangered landmarks and Historic residences matter to me, where ever they are. Springfield, Brooklyn, Downtown,etc .  There is an appeal to the designs and durability of that era that simply is not the norm in modern construction.   

It has always been my hope that all of these places can be spared.  Contrary to what has been stated , this has never about 'me'.    While some may enjoy pulling my chain, about my convictions, I think the same can be said for others in other instances.  I guess it is how we as individuals deal with that, that makes us all different.

[Debbie Thompson]

I 100% agree with you, Timkin. I, too, am interested in ALL the historic buildings in Jacksonville, no matter what neighborhood they are in.  I just thought we should move the PS#4 part to the Riverside page, that's all.  And if we are discussing something in San Marco, that's where it should be.  :-)

[Timkin]

Agree completely Debbie.   I wanted to point out that you made a passing remark which got me to thinking. You mentioned the older Haskell Building.. Remember it well .  Visited often as Haskell had an in-house print shop there.   

This is a great example of a building literally jammed up against the very same expressway, and while Im sure it is mostly vacant, the point is , that does not render it unusable. 

[Debbie Thompson]

The really important thing to know, Timkin, is that the expressway was already there when it was built. OK, not as high on the building as it is now, but it was there, and we built it anyway.  And guess what?  We never heard the expressway when we were inside the building working. I guess they put in windows that kept the sound down, yes, even in 1973.  Hmmm....wonder if you would hear it in a condo across the way, with what must be even better sound-deadening windows in 2013?  Probably not.  :-)

But there I go again, after I asked not once, but twice, to move this discussion, going off on the PS#4 tangent with you.  LOL

[Timkin]

The really important thing to know, Timkin, is that the expressway was already there when it was built. OK, not as high on the building as it is now, but it was there, and we built it anyway.  And guess what?  We never heard the expressway when we were inside the building working. I guess they put in windows that kept the sound down, yes, even in 1973.  Hmmm....wonder if you would hear it in a condo across the way, with what must be even better sound-deadening windows in 2013?  Probably not.  :-)

But there I go again, after I asked not once, but twice, to move this discussion, going off on the PS#4 tangent with you.  LOL

totally okay, Debbie.