The S-Line: The Key To Urban Economic Revitalization?

[thelakelander]

I'm confused about a couple of details in the story. Specifically this paragraph:
"It's not a coincidence that the S-Line provides a direct rail connection between JAXPORT's Talleyrand Terminal and the Florida East Coast (FEC) Railroad's Bowden Yard on the Southside.  Now that this connection no longer exists, freight bound for FEC is shipped to the Southside by truck, speeding up the destruction of publicly maintained roads such as Emerson Street."

As far as I know, the S line never directly connected Talleyrand with Bowden Yard. To go from Talleyrand to Bowden, trains have to go either to Moncrief Yard or Simpson Yard then be moved to Bowden. And Norfolk Southern and CSX both make several trips a day with 100 car piggyback trains over the FEC Bridge to Bowden. And vice versa. So that connection is very much alive.

Yes, the S-Line has been gone for a few decades now.  At one point, it did allow access to the FEC without going to Simpson or Moncrief.  Today, a good chunk of freight travels by truck to all three yards.  A benefit of a publicly owned rail corridor accessing the port is that it takes the need to pull something to the NS or CSX yards before reaching FEC.  Time is money.  Imo, it's a positive anytime you can cut out the middle man.

[aclchampion]

Not doubting your word but I am going to have to check my old maps because I do not believe that Seaboard Air Line ever directly interchanged with the FEC.

[thelakelander]

Thanks.  Be sure to let us know what you find.  I'd like to know if the S-Line and SAL never physically connected to the old Jacksonville Terminal and FEC track.

[aclchampion]

Looking at the old Sanborn Maps, and some other documents, the S line came east to the old F&J Yard and then turned north. There was another connection off the F&J yard that crossed 8th Street East and ran parallel to 7th St East that belonged to SAL. It branched off and one went southeast to what is now called Eastport Yard. But the other branch never reached the port area. It terminated just east of Talleyrand Ave. The only rail connections I can find belong to the St Johns River Terminal Company (Norfolk Southern) and Municipal Dock and Terminal Railroad (Talleyrand Terminal Railroad). I believe SJRTC, SAL and ACL all interchanged at F&J Yard.  Still researching.

[thelakelander]

Thanks.  If the S-Line were re-established as a part of a municipal line between the F&J yard and Prime Osborn, what would stop FEC from being able to directly interchange at F&J with Talleyrand Terminal Railroad?  Would you consider that a realistic possibility?  Btw, for the record, I believe the city and JAXPORT would be better off buying all of the former S-Line that CSX still operates north and south of the F&J.  Making it a municipal rail corridor would basically give all three major rail carriers direct access with Talleyrand and Blount Island (assuming the S-Line between downtown and the F&J was restored).

[Bike Jax]

I posted this link a few days ago, but I think it is worth reposting.

"Any major American city that solely relies on streets and highways for its transportation network will fail to remain competitive and will falter economically over time. That includes cities with bus transit systems that rely on the same streets and highways."

Here is link to an excellent article in Next American City:
http://americancity.org/buzz/entry/3361/

[aclchampion]

I'm not a transportation expert, Lakelander, but i can't see any reason to do that. FEC already interchanges with both CSX and NS and both go to the port. I can't imagine why FEC would ever want their own connection directly to Talleyrand. Their major port is Miami. And I just don't see how that could ever be possible anyway, since mass portions of the old S line aren't just buried, they are gone and theres this little obstruction called the JTA that might object to trains coming right through their yard.
Just my opinion.

[thelakelander]

As a part of JTA's commuter rail plans, JTA's yard would be reconfigured to repair the missing link.

[aclchampion]

Did not know that. That puts a whole different slant on it doesn't it? 

[aclchampion]

Lakelander, is the original roadbed and rail buried under the asphalt of the now bike path or did they rip up the rails and ties?

[thelakelander]

The bed is still there in some parts but it will have to be completely rebuilt. You're looking at a little over $30 million (1/2 the cost of I-95's. 8-mile pavement repair project costs) for 4-5 miles of track. However, that will be generated by the mobility fee, over time, if we actual decide to collect it.

Here is a link to JTA's commuter rail feasibility study from a few years back: http://www.jtafla.com/JTAfutureplans/Rail/

[BackinJax05]

Pulling up the S-line was one of the stupidest things CSuX has ever done. Not only here in Jacksonville, but in Georgia too. And they wonder why the A-line is so congested.

[bobsim]

  We cycled the greenway last weekend. Not complete but the asphalt and curb work is done and we couldn't resist. We weren't the only ones out there, it was hot, sticky, dirty and not even open and folks were using it. My hunch is it will be received well.

http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797

[tufsu1]

nice...had no idea they'd finished that much

[peestandingup]

  We cycled the greenway last weekend. Not complete but the asphalt and curb work is done and we couldn't resist. We weren't the only ones out there, it was hot, sticky, dirty and not even open and folks were using it. My hunch is it will be received well.

http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797

I hope so. We biked all the way through it today (thanks for the map BTW), but went in on the Myrtle end. There was A LOT of broken glass & the trail enters at (and goes through) some rough parts of town. I personally don't mind any of that (besides the glass, because flats suck), but could see how it might turn some people off. Also the breaks in the trail when you have to use the streets aren't apparent. There's no signs or anything indicating where to go. Hopefully that will be added?

Anyways, I hope its enough of a hit so it gets extended (esp down into Riverside). Right now its mostly a recreation trail in an urban environment. And I really think where the entrances are will turn some people off & decrease riders (both because of the blight & the fact that they're not close to anything or easy to bike to for most people). If it went from Riverside, up & over through downtown & Springfield, then down into the Eastside/Stadium area, then it would be a game changer IMO.