Skyway on the Move: An exclusive thread on EXPANSION and IMPROVEMENT - PART 2

[Ocklawaha]

NOTICE: FOR THE BENEFIT OF CONSTRUCTIVE THOUGHT THIS THREAD WILL PLAY BY THE SAME RULES WE USED IN PART 1

Okay, here is the "OFFICIAL SKYWAY EXPANSION THREAD" It's here for you to vote and comment on, and I've set it up for Skyway supporters only.[/b]

Anti Skyway tirades will be deleted.
(REASON FOR DELETING? Because we want to know your opinion on positive ideas and concepts for the little railway)

This is not to say we can't have a healthy give and take on the positive aspects of this thread, IE:  "I like this idea more because..." or "I completely disagree with that plan or concept because..."

I'm also going to bend a bit and allow re-posting of pertinent posts from the past, if you think you've got a post or drawing/map/or diagram that qualifies lets dig it our and try it on our fresh audience.

Have fun and let's do the work for them! And remember Uncle Ock is watching, so don't try and spoil the party.

How many knew the Jacksonville Jaguars packed in 498,655 fans over the last season, the Jacksonville Suns and other baseball games (94 days total) 375,401 the Gator Bowl another 61,312 and the Arena another 99,024 at 15 events. A grand total of 1,034,392 people visited the stadium district, and this number is without consideration to the "promised public pier," Metropolitan Park, Police Station, Jail, Berkman Tower, urban residential, Wells Fargo and other major buildings, Amphitheater, or the neighborhoods of East Jacksonville. It has actually been said that JTA didn't act on expansion before the Super Bowl because, "It would be too successful and the trains would break down under the crush load." Interesting as this would be a WONDERFUL PROBLEM TO HAVE. The answer of course is do what only trains can do... you add cars, oh, and don't worry the stations are designed for trains of 6 cars.

So what does all of this mean? Well with approximately 117 "activity days" in the stadium district, this Skyway extension would be far from empty. 1,034,392 people. Now consider that the JTA Jaguar Game shuttles which have steadily been losing popularity ridership has declined to 9.9% of those attending the games for a total of about 49,652 annual riders (2009 numbers). So a Skyway to the stadium area should be busy 32.5% of the year, with an additional 101,370 'new' riders annually, without regards to fixed transit attracting more riders, up to 155% more in some cases. What about a 33.3% increase? Okay, that's totally speculation but ridership could hit as much as 135,126 passengers a year just for our special events.

Granted that the Skyway would still be short of the 65,000 daily passengers, 35,000 daily passengers, 20,000 daily passengers, 10,000 daily passengers we were promised at one time. At the current rate of daily use, the Skyway should hit 979,011M/L by the end of the year. Toss in our hypothetical 135,126 and you'd come out with 1,114,137 pushing the little rail line over the million mark.

Here are the results of the previous poll:

Make trains and stations more attractive, expand to wrap advertising, lease out station space, longer hours, longer trains 0 votes (0%)
All of Option One, Plus Expansion the line to San Marco, FEC RY at Atlantic (you know it was very close to the old South Jacksonville train station site) 7 votes (10%)
All of Option 1, plus EXPAND to the Stadium District with new stations at BOA Tower, Convention Center/Hyatt, A. P. Randolph, Everbank Field 40 votes (57.1%)
All of Option One, Plus Expansion to Riverside at Blue Cross or Annie Lytle 10 votes (14.3%)
A combination of any two of the above, please explain
13 votes  (18.6%)

Let's get to work on this monorail, it's way past due.

OCKLAWAHA

[Timkin]

Personally the next leg should go to BCBS/ Brooklyn/ Annie Lytle with trolley or street car to 5points.  Increased use and riders , goes to a thriving district. Makes use of an endangered historic Landmark.    Win Win Win

[acme54321]

I'd like to see it come up Riverside ave, under the interstate then jog over to May Steeet and have a station at Oak and Lomax.  May street has pretty much all of it's historic fabric removed so the skyway tracks wouldn't detract from thearea as much as it would from other streets, and could help spur growth in that area.

[tufsu1]

I voted YES, but with several caveats

1. There are better extensions needed FIRST (such as San Marco and Brooklyn/Riverside Av)
2. We REALLY need to decide if the skyway is the best transit mode to go to the stadium....why not streetcar?

[cline]

If it is to be expanded I vote for this order:

1. San Marco
2. Brooklyn
3. Stadium

I'm with tufsu, I think there might be better mode options for the stadium.

[Tacachale]

I also voted yes, with similar caveats. I believe a stadium district expansion would be successful; I don't know that it would be the most successful of all the possibilities. Additionally, it might be more difficult to fund than other routes, or other modes taking an equivalent route.

However, I would add to the argument something I've said elsewhere: a skyway expansion to the sports complex would allow the courthouses to use that free parking for jurors during weekdays, and bring them in by skyway. Currently they're already having jurors park there and the JTA is shuttling them to the (current) courthouse apparently at their own expense. The courthouse is now having to seek other solutions; this would be one and would also immediately add hundreds of new weekly skyway riders. Other entities could potentially do the same thing.

This was one of the motivations for the original skyway plan going through the sports complex before it was axed by the Feds.

[JeffreyS]

I voted yes but I would like to see the priorities be
1. Amtrak Downtown
2. Riverside Streetcar from King and College to Downtown via 5 points.
3. Skyway expansion A. Brooklyn B. San Marco
4. Amtrak set as a quasi commuter rail with stops at St. Augustine, Avenues, FEC park and Jax Terminal (Prime Osborn).
5. Utilize the S line as commuter rail in to Springfield and a bit North.
6. Skyway to stadium
7. Commuter rail service on CSX A line Palatka, Green Cove Springs, Flemming Island, St. John's country day, Wells, NAS, San Jaun, Edgewood/FSCJ, King and Jax Terminal (Prime Osborn). At this point extend Riverside streetcar to the commuter platform at King.


However I can get onboard with Skyway to the stadium as a good show piece and easier to sell to the general pop than other lines.

[thelakelander]

I'd have a few caveats as well.  No corridor or mode in this city should be looked at in a vacuum.

1. As tufsu1 has stated, I'm not sold it (this particular transit mode) "has" to be expanded to the stadium area.  With further study from a comprehensive level, something like streetcar or LRT may be more logical.

2. The stadium is just like the Prime Osborn.  It's going to sit empty most of the year.  It's not going to get a dime of state or federal money, so residents are going to tax themselves extra to pay for 100% of the costs.  Thus, anything that is expanded in the direction of the stadium needs to connect more than just the stadium.  It probably needs to penetrate an adjacent neighborhood with decent density and a high population of transit dependent residents, like the Eastside as well.  That will give you everyday ridership plus put something in place for special events.

[Ocklawaha]

Let the Skyway contact all of downtown doing what monorails do best, get ABOVE the traffic as this one does in Kuala Lumpur .

I voted YES, but with several caveats

1. There are better extensions needed FIRST (such as San Marco and Brooklyn/Riverside Av)
2. We REALLY need to decide if the skyway is the best transit mode to go to the stadium....why not streetcar?

I agree TUFSU1, my whole premise being that the stadium district/Eastside line may not be the amazing failure predicted in several conversations on MJ.

That San Marco at Atlantic/FEC RY, WEST OF THE TRACKS is without a doubt the number one 'need'. Thinking population clusters, that Skyway line would finally bridge the FEC tracks, this is important as there really is no reliable, anytime access to anything between the areas bounded by Philips Highway, University, St. Johns River, FEC RY. This route would prove to be a modest success bringing a totally new demographic to the Skyway system. Elevated OVER the FEC RY the Skyway Atlantic station could be designed with a across-the-platform connection to both bus and the Commuter Rail.

People who made that change from train to Skyway would need to transfer a second time to access anything east of Hogan if we operated a bus rather then a monorail. after they cross the river just to get to the east side. A goal of a single transfer to most anywhere downtown should be written in stone. That transfer should be train to Skyway.

The stadium line is important to the success of the whole system as it offers all of the residents within the district outlined above access to the ENTIRE downtown as opposed to everything west of Hogan. The soft numbers illustrate that the cars would be packed with people at least 117 times a year. The balance of the year, the east side of downtown, offices, apartments, condos and the AP Randolph neighborhood north of the Arlington Expressway, should generate a fairly constant system flow on nonevent days.

I think the east side/stadium route is superior to streetcar in any case but private right-of-way. So a REAL trolley without exclusive right-of-way would be just as stuck in stadium traffic as a shuttle bus. In these hard to access (without enduring a demolition rally on the crowded road) the monorail would do what monorails and El's do everywhere... fly above the roads.

Riverside is pretty easy, all they need to get started is to build a station at the maintenance facility, but I'm not optimistic that it would generate any traffic until we get infill in the Brooklyn neighborhood. Infill in the devastated sea of foundations would likely follow the Skyway. If we toss in the BCBS/Everbank/Fidelity offices then the Skyway route to Brooklyn and hopefully the Annie Lytle transit hub it would be a smashing success.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

1. If the mode connecting the stadium were streetcar, LRT, or whatever, one could make a single transfer at the JRTC as well. 

2. As for ROW, downtown's streets are between 80'-70' wide.  That's plenty of space to accommodate fixed transit at grade on it's own dedicated ROW and cars/bikes in their own lanes.  We just have to be willing to commit to not treating the automobile as the highest mobility priority in the urban core.

3. In regards to Riverside Avenue, I still believe a streetcar could serve this area alone, which would then free up money that would be used to extend the skyway in the same area, to be used getting the skyway to another destination like Atlantic Boulevard, Shands, or the farmer's market.

All in all, extending the skyway to a variety of destinations makes sense.  However, when dealing with a limited financial pot, its best to balance it with other modes to a point where we can get more connectivity and utilization out of the same limited financial pot.

[Jdog]

Does anybody have a rough estimate of the cost of continuing the Skyway from Central Station to JUST the old courthouse?  (Thinking about the future convention center location) 

[thelakelander]

The mobility plan estimated extending the skyway would run around $35 million per mile.  Thus:

$14 million - 0.40 mile extension to Market Street from Hogan Street (current courthouse site)

$35 million - 1.00 mile extension to A. Philip Randolph from Hogan (Arena/Baseball Grounds)

$46.6 million - 1.33 mile extension to Metropolitan Park/Everbank Field

By comparison, a streetcar would run you around $14 to $15 million per mile.  If you went with a heritage streetcar, that number would probably drop to $10 million per mile or less.

[wsansewjs]

The mobility plan estimated extending the skyway would run around $35 million per mile.  Thus:

$14 million - 0.40 mile extension to Market Street from Hogan Street (current courthouse site)

$35 million - 1.00 mile extension to A. Philip Randolph from Hogan (Arena/Baseball Grounds)

$46.6 million - 1.33 mile extension to Metropolitan Park/Everbank Field

By comparison, a streetcar would run you around $14 to $15 million per mile.  If you went with a heritage streetcar, that number would probably drop to $10 million per mile or less.

So the heritage or a normal streetcar would be the best option for the naysayers and the aye-sayers in resolving this transit issue for Jacksonville. By giving the streetcar an opportunity to work without blowing the money out of the water, we can see if the streetcar can prove itself to be effective method of public transit. This would slowly help transform the naysayers into aye-sayers before spending more money on the Skyway or other higher cost, but higher quality transit.

-Josh

[thelakelander]

My personal opinion is that given the budget constraints of this community, it makes more sense to build anything to the stadium as a part of the streetcar network. 

For example, with $46.6 million, you could expand the skyway from Hogan to Everbank Field.  For that same figure, you could construct a heritage streetcar line from Everbank Field to St. Vincent's Medical Center in Riverside.  Tell me which one gets you more bang for your buck?  In essence, that sets the streetcar up as a complementing east/west line to the skyway, which begins to resemble more of a north/south route.

Anyway you spin it, the lower cost/mile allows you to stretch fixed transit to serve four times the area, people, and destinations.  A complete no-brainer to me. 

[Dashing Dan]

If it is to be expanded I vote for this order:

1. San Marco
2. Brooklyn
3. Stadium

I'm with tufsu, I think there might be better mode options for the stadium.

From an operational standpoint a skyway extension east along Bay Street might make sense, but I wouldn't go as far as the stadium.  What we have today is two legs at one end feeding into one leg at the other end, which creates a bottleneck.