JTA Greyhound plans to go before DDRB

[Dashing Dan]

There is a roughly 29 year gap in my firsthand knowledge of planning in Jacksonville, from 1975 to 2004, although  I had planner friends who kept me posted through sometime around 1979.

I do know that the current JRTC initiative was jump started in 2004, and that it was a continuation of work that had been done sometime earlier.

[Tacachale]

Here's a 2001 FTU article that talks a bit about the history.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/082701/met_7050460.html

The city has been talking about bringing Amtrack downtown since at least 1993. And it looks like even in 2001 both Greyhound and the visitors bureau were talking about placing Greyhound several blocks away from the Prime Osborne. Then as now a big part of the concern was the convention center being located there already.

[thelakelander]

The concept, probably not this exact configuration, has been in the works at least since the 1970s.  This set of former whore houses on Houston Street (on national historic register at the time) was torn down in the late 1970s for a JTA intermodal center that was never built.

[Dashing Dan]

From the 2001 Times Union article:

"The bottom line is that multimodal [transit operations] and a convention center don't mix," said Jeff Sachs, managing partner for Strategic Advisory Group. "People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."

That's pretty chilling.



Nashville has a convention center in the middle of its downtown.  Over the past twenty five years the Nashville convention center has done so well that they are now building a new one that will also be downtown.  I think the price tag on the new one is $450 million.

To clear the land for each of the two downtown convention center sites, Nashville has had to relocate its Greyhound station both times.

In the Eighties there had been plans to put the Nashville convention center inside the Union Station there, but that idea was rejected because the Union Station in Nashville is not close enough to downtown.  Instead they made the Nashville Union Station into an upscale hotel.  It hasn't always done well, but I think that it's doing okay right now.

[thelakelander]

Then as now a big part of the concern was the convention center being located there already.

Back in those days, there was no talk about relocating the convention center.  Given the current climate, it makes fiscal and operational sense to confirm if its going to stay or not before spending millions that we most likely don't need too for a less than ideal end user friendly set up.

[Tacachale]

From the 2001 Times Union article:

"The bottom line is that multimodal [transit operations] and a convention center don't mix," said Jeff Sachs, managing partner for Strategic Advisory Group. "People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."

That's pretty chilling.



Nashville has a convention center in the middle of its downtown.  Over the past twenty five years the Nashville convention center has done so well that they are now building a new one that will also be downtown.  I think the price tag on the new one is $450 million.

To clear the land for each of the two downtown convention center sites, Nashville has had to relocate its Greyhound station both times.

In the Eighties there had been plans to put the Nashville convention center inside the Union Station there, but that idea was rejected because the Union Station in Nashville is not close enough to downtown.  Instead they made the Nashville Union Station into an upscale hotel.  It hasn't always done well, but I think that it's doing okay right now.

To be fair, the quote was about the transit center being IN the convention building, not just near it. I don't know that that's such an off base concern. What's concerning is that ten years later we appear to be pursuing the same line of thinking despite the fact there are discussions of moving the convention center.

[Dashing Dan]

Whether or not the transit center would have been in the same building as the convention center, I still don't like the use of the word "island" in that quote. 

The convention center in Philadelphia is in more or less the same place as a downtown commuter railroad station (Reading Terminal), and they both fit together fairly well. 

There are also plenty of intercity buses (aka "Chinatown Buses") that load and unload very close to the convention center in Philadelphia.

[Jason]

Why can we not have a combined convention and transportation center??  There is certainly enough land for it at the current site to expand the center vertically and horizontally with a garage/skyway/retail/hotel hub across the street.  There is built in visibility from the highway and built in mobility options with all of the modes of transportation.

Its killing me that ideas like these aren't being discussed amongst the city and JTA....

[Jason]

Kings avenue garage could then be used for overflow parking for larger events at the convention center....

[Dashing Dan]

If only the skyway ran directly between the Prime Osborn and the Kings Avenue Garage. 

First you'd have to change at the Central skyway station, and then you'd have to walk from the Kings Avenue skyway station to the Kings Avenue garage.

That's a missed opportunity for sure.

[Jason]

Here are some images I threw together a few years back...

Just ignore the early transportation center (in gray) along Forsyth.

[Dashing Dan]

The concept, probably not this exact configuration, has been in the works at least since the 1970s.  This set of former whore houses on Houston Street (on national historic register at the time) was torn down in the late 1970s for a JTA intermodal center that was never built.

Comparing those buildings with The Doll House, I'd have to say that prostitution must have been much more lucrative in the past than stripping is in the present.

[Dashing Dan]

Also let the record show that in the above post, Dashing Dan is running away from the whore houses on Houston Street.

[Ocklawaha]

I agree Dan, the idea of arriving in some distant city on a freaking island is scary indeed. Lake is right though that the people holding the checkbook call the shots, since JTA nor FDOT has never had an original thought in their combined history, we are the collective recipients of a classic FUBAR plan.

Nashville's Union Station is at Broadway and 11Th Street, which is about 6-8 blocks from the center of downtown. I've been through there on the train back in it's glory days. Funny how Nashville is highly successful with it's convention center and ours is a shambles on a true island, but then we put ours more then 6-8 blocks from the center of downtown. Stupid is as stupid does?

N.U.S.

BTW, Nashville retained the former rail platform area by paving it and creating a large surface parking lot for the upscale hotel that now occupies the station. This will make it easy to convert back to transportation uses, or share uses with transportation should they ever desire to do so. We did the same thing then dropped a huge concrete block right smack in the middle cutting the station off from any future headhouse stub tracks.

OCKLAWAHA

[ricker]

In simplest terms, please can anyone explain exactly  WHY this sprawl ing Mega ranch must be entertained if it extends north of Forsyth ??