JTA Greyhound plans to go before DDRB

[thelakelander]

The Downtown Development Review Board is scheduled this week to review designs for the proposed Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center Greyhound Terminal. The project, called Greyhound Terminal Phase 1, is planned north of the Osborn Center and east of Interstate 95 between West Adams and West Houston streets. The board, part of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission, also is expected to discuss a JEA parking lot, the JAX Chamber façade renovation and the Downtown Vision Inc. Laura Street façade program. The meeting is 2 p.m. at the Police and Fire Pension Fund Building at 1 W. Adams St.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=534577

[Charles Hunter]

If they are going to do this ... move the iconic Greyhound signs that extend from the current building.

[thelakelander]

I'm still not crazy about the location or the duplicate terminal expense.  Nevertheless, looking at the plan presented, if I'm the DDRB, I'd be concerned about the following:

1. Why is there a solid masonry wall along Houston?  In the JRTC orginal plan this was supposed to be an "L" shaped building that would provide some type of pedestrian activity on Houston and Johnson.  Now it appears that outside of that particular intersection, the rest of the block will be hostile to the pedestrian.

2. Will this terminal have a cafe or something for waiting room passengers to get a quick meal, purchase a magazine, etc.?  If so, where is it located and why doesn't it have access to the exterior with outdoor seating to provide some street life on this block?

3. Is this a bus depot for just Greyhound or multiple bus carriers?

With all of this said, I hope the council and mayor's office find a way to delay this thing until some final decision is made on the convention center issue.  It will be ashame to have JTA build this thing next to Adams Street only to have Mayor Brown announce the convention center will be rebuilt next to the Hyatt.  This pretty much locks us into an expensive poorly developed and thoughtout intermodal center site plan.  Given Jacksonville's history, ending up with something half ass, yet with Taj Mahal costs, wouldn't come as a suprise.

[Ralph W]

Who is responsible for this design presentation? Is it part and parcel of JTA's overall plan or did Greyhound management buy in to this mess already?

Greyhound would be irresponsible if they did not have their operations group completely vet the entire JTA project and look at options presented by other than the architects of the ivory tower. Greyhound just can't be that shortsighted.

[thelakelander]

Greyhound is fine with this site.  For some reason, I don't think many entities in this town really look at things holisitically and how one decision impacts several other situations that might be outside their area of expertise.  Now that I think about it, it's surprising that we're still allowing renderings illustrating infill projects in the downtown area, that don't include the surrounding context.

[exnewsman]

Who is responsible for this design presentation? Is it part and parcel of JTA's overall plan or did Greyhound management buy in to this mess already?

Greyhound would be irresponsible if they did not have their operations group completely vet the entire JTA project and look at options presented by other than the architects of the ivory tower. Greyhound just can't be that shortsighted.

Well this design looks NOTHING like the original design displayed by JTA. This is probably a Greyhound thing. Lake probably has a shot of that rendering somewhere.

[thelakelander]

This was the old one.  I'm not crazy about the old design architecturally but it does appear to engage the pedestrian and stimulate more foot traffic than the new design.

Old Design



New Design

[Ocklawaha]

SHORT SIGHTED! If the DDRB allows this independent station to be built as part of a multi-station plan disguised as a Transportation Center they're just plain SHORT SIGHTED. JTA and FDOT are the regional leaders of dumbing down the city politic and the general populous.

Folks as we've shown over and over again, a true Transportation Center is a one stop shop for all of your surface transportation needs. Scattering this thing all over LaVilla is the antithesis of what a JRTC should be. Just imagine transferring from Amtrak to bus in the middle of the night hiking 6 blocks across LaVilla.  A Transportation Center should have all carriers in the same location, ONE WAITING ROOM, ONE TICKETING AREA, ONE BAGGAGE ROOM, this allows each carrier to benefit the other with transfer passengers. A true JRTC would also allow each carrier to share the expenses of terminal upkeep. Once they dilute the crowds by scattering separate waiting rooms around the neighborhood, no one piece of this station menagerie will be able to support the many sundry services, gift shops, restaurants and news stands.

JTA DEMONSTRATES ONCE AGAIN WHY A HIGHWAY BUILDER SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO RUN A MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM.

JTA is misleading the City, the DDRB and the City Council to buy into yet another disastrous plan. Once we pull the trigger on this, we have killed any semblance of a real Transportation Center. Someone needs to file legal action against this rogue gang and tie this up until JTA agrees to wait until the Prime Osborn is vacated by the Convention Center people. At that point we could use the already existing grand old railroad terminal as a single station for all.

Who is on the DDRB? Can we get any facts in the hands of of these people? Just as I tried to stop the Skyway, I'm predicting no better results from the JRTC, this nonsense needs to stop.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

DDRB Meeting Information

Meeting Times and Staff Contacts

The DDRB meets at 2 p.m. on the last Thursday of each month in the Police & Fire Pension Building, 1 West Adams St., Suite 200. Contact Jim Klement, Redevelopment Coordinator, at (904) 630-2689 or at jklement@coj.net to confirm meeting dates and times, questions, or placement on the agenda.

DDRB Members

Chair - Andy Sikes, Baptist Health - Urban Planner Representative

Vice-Chair - Timothy Miller, AIA, ELM - Downtown Property Owner Representative

Secretary - Montasser (Monty) M. Selim, Urban Planner Representative

James F. Bailey, Jr., Bailey Publishing and Communications, Inc. - Downtown Property Owner Representative

John A. Fischer, AIA, Danis Construction - Architect Representative

Christopher D. Flagg, RLA, ASLA, Flagg Design Studio, LLC - Landscape Architect Representative

Jonathan R. Garza, Garza Constructors, Inc. - Contractor/Developer/ Realtor Representative

Logan Rink, Design Cooperative, LLC - Downtown Property Owner Representative

Roland Udenze, Haskell Architects and Engineers - Architect Representative

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville-Economic-Development-Commission/Downtown-Development/Downtown-Development-Review-Board-(DDRB)-Meeting-I.aspx

[Ocklawaha]

 

I'm still not crazy about the location or the duplicate terminal expense.  Nevertheless, looking at the plan presented, if I'm the DDRB, I'd be concerned about the following:

1. Why is there a solid masonry wall along Houston?  In the JRTC original plan this was supposed to be an "L" shaped building that would provide some type of pedestrian activity on Houston and Johnson.  Now it appears that outside of that particular intersection, the rest of the block will be hostile to the pedestrian.

The wall is for safety purposes, Greyhound uses angle parking spaces for their coaches, which forces them to back out. Secondly, Greyhound Corporation is responsible enough to realize that with a sepparate station, they won't have the traffic count to make leasing retail space attractive.

2. Will this terminal have a cafe or something for waiting room passengers to get a quick meal, purchase a magazine, etc.?  If so, where is it located and why doesn't it have access to the exterior with outdoor seating to provide some street life on this block?

As a cost cutting action Greyhound has closed most of the old Post House Cafes, that once occupied station space. Here in Jacksonville, they retain a small snack counter not unlike the ones in the Target Stores. Again, there is just not enough traffic on Greyhound alone to warrant a full service restaurant.

3. Is this a bus depot for just Greyhound or multiple bus carriers?

Mike Blaylock told me it is really for everyone, then said the other carriers could use the 'other' station. This is doublespeak for "It's just a Greyhound Station, please allow us to obfuscate  the truth."

With all of this said, I hope the council and mayor's office find a way to delay this thing until some final decision is made on the convention center issue.  It will be a shame to have JTA build this thing next to Adams Street only to have Mayor Brown announce the convention center will be rebuilt next to the Hyatt.  This pretty much locks us into an expensive poorly developed and thought out inter-modal center site plan.  Given Jacksonville's history, ending up with something half ass, yet with Taj Mahal costs, wouldn't come as a suprise.

This is an excellent chance for the Mayor to be bold, take a stand, and insist on this being done right.

[thelakelander]

The wall is for safety purposes, Greyhound uses angle parking spaces for their coaches, which forces them to back out. Secondly, Greyhound Corporation is responsible enough to realize that with a sepparate station, they won't have the traffic count to make leasing retail space attractive.

I understand from a functional standpoint of why the wall is there.  However, from a pedestrian scale standpoint, that entire block facing Houston Street becomes permanent dead space and void of any decent streetside activity.  Ideally, the goal within an urban area such as downtown would be to shield off such a large service apron with some sort of building frontage.  For example, if the old terminal was used, a significant portion of operations could take place in the surface parking lot behind the building, which could also be masked long term with a plaza or support development facing Bay Street.  Thus, you stimulate foot traffic on the streets while also buffering this pedestrian scale synergy from bus service operations.

As a cost cutting action Greyhound has closed most of the old Post House Cafes, that once occupied station space. Here in Jacksonville, they retain a small snack counter not unlike the ones in the Target Stores. Again, there is just not enough traffic on Greyhound alone to warrant a full service restaurant.

So, based on your replies above, this building will result in another fairly permanent dead block of pedestrian scale activity downtown.  Urban pedestrian scale vibrancy is a direct result of clustering complementing uses within a compact setting.  By spreading facilities out across multiple blocks, the success rate for supporting retail uses takes a negative hit, which then results in facilities like this, just simply not offering the services one would expect in a vibrant downtown setting.

This method of planning, approving and developing individual infill projects that don't stimulate pedestrian scale activity along their borders or synergy with the surrounding context, essentially goes against the idea of downtown become a vibrant pedestrian scale environment.  What we basically have is another county courthouse situation.  Outside of the front entrance, you've got 3.5 blocks of sidewalk frontage that will be permanent dead space at the pedestrian scale.

This type of situation can be easily resolved by looking at and evaluating projects from a holistic level.  For example, this greyhound facility design should not be approved on its own.  If its truly a part of a intermodal center, the design of the entire complex and its desired impact on the adjacent blocks should come into question.  If we do this with all individual public and private sector projects that come up for approval in downtown, half of the struggles we face towards creating a decent downtown environment will go away as it develops out.

[Dashing Dan]

DDRB Meeting Information

Meeting Times and Staff Contacts

The DDRB meets at 2 p.m. on the last Thursday of each month in the Police & Fire Pension Building, 1 West Adams St., Suite 200. Contact Jim Klement, Redevelopment Coordinator, at (904) 630-2689 or at jklement@coj.net to confirm meeting dates and times, questions, or placement on the agenda.

DDRB Members

Chair - Andy Sikes, Baptist Health - Urban Planner Representative

Vice-Chair - Timothy Miller, AIA, ELM - Downtown Property Owner Representative

Secretary - Montasser (Monty) M. Selim, Urban Planner Representative

James F. Bailey, Jr., Bailey Publishing and Communications, Inc. - Downtown Property Owner Representative

John A. Fischer, AIA, Danis Construction - Architect Representative

Christopher D. Flagg, RLA, ASLA, Flagg Design Studio, LLC - Landscape Architect Representative

Jonathan R. Garza, Garza Constructors, Inc. - Contractor/Developer/ Realtor Representative

Logan Rink, Design Cooperative, LLC - Downtown Property Owner Representative

Roland Udenze, Haskell Architects and Engineers - Architect Representative

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville-Economic-Development-Commission/Downtown-Development/Downtown-Development-Review-Board-(DDRB)-Meeting-I.aspx

I know one of them and I'm sure that they are both great guys, but it should be noted that neither of the DDRB members listed as "urban planner representative" is a member of the AICP or even the  American Planning Association.  Downtown might be better off if planners had been actually involved with it.

[thelakelander]

Stormwater retention in DT?  Another reason why we should be looking at this stuff holistically.  If multiple properties are going to have to include stormwater retention, we should be looking at replicating the Brooklyn Park concept somewhere in LaVilla.  My guess is that the Greyhound stormwater retention will end of as another suburban pond with a chain link fence around it.

DOWNTOWN DEVELOPMENT REVIEW BOARD

CONCEPTUAL REVIEW APPLICATION 2011-012

SEPTEMBER 29, 2011

GENERAL INFORMATION[/u]

The Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center (JRTC) Greyhound Terminal is proposed to be developed in the Lavilla District of Downtown Jacksonville. The proposed development will compliment both intra and intercity transportation connectivity systems planned for the City as referenced in the Downtown Jacksonville Master Plan and Downtown Vision Plan. The proposed Greyhound commercial bus terminal replaces the existing facility presently located at 10 Pearl Street, between Water Street and Forsyth Street. The applicant previously submitted the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center and received approval; the approval also included the redevelopment of the existing Skyway and associated new building as Phase I. The development has not moved forward as of this date due to funding issues.

The proposed JRTC Greyhound Terminal is now positioned to move forward and is referenced as Phase 1. The previously approved Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center (DDRB 2008-005) received conceptual and final approval at the December 17, 2009 DDRB meeting. The request for conceptual approval of the JRTC Greyhound Terminal represents a more detailed plan of development within the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center Master Plan.

The request of conceptual approval for the proposed project located between Adams Street and Houston Street, and west of Johnson Street; includes the following activities:

- One story 36 ft height, Greyhound Terminal building - 10,538 Square Ft.

- Nine active loading bus slips on site

- Ten bus long term parking spaces on site

- Nine employee parking spaces on site

- Eleven on street customer parking places on Houston Street

- Storm water retention on the eastern portion of the site, east of Stuart Street and north of Houston Street

- Drop off/taxi area on Johnson Street

Some interesting notes from the application

3. Entrances

This criterion requires at least one pedestrian entrance door on each building elevation facing a street. The development consists of a new one story bus terminal building and the associated commercial bus circulation movements and passenger loading and unloading. The proposed project provides pedestrian client access to front of the building, facing Johnson Street, and notes that access has not been provided to the building form the Houston Street and Adams Street frontages. The applicant has indicated that entrances are minimized so as to address security, monitoring, and safety considerations. Additionally, the design of the building encourages general public access through controlled and monitored locations at the front of the building facing Johnson Street.

In summary, the development will require a deviation from the DDRB for the terminal building to not provide entrances for Adams Street and Houston Street frontages, prior to final approval to be in compliance with this guideline.

Just my two cents but from an urban planning perspective, one would wonder if there is an alternative solution out there that would allow for some pedestrian interaction of side streets and more on Johnson Street, while also meeting the security concerns of JTA?

DDRB STAFF RECOMMENDATION

Based on the foregoing, DDRB staff recommends conceptual approval for DDRB Application 2011-012, JRTC Greyhound Terminal, subject to the following conditions:

1. Applicant to receive a deviation for the JRTC Greyhound Terminal from Sec. 656.361.13 Entrances criteria to not provide entrances to the building facades with frontage on Houston Street and Adams Street.

2. Applicant to receive a deviation for the JRTC Greyhound Terminal from Sec.656.361.18 Transparency criteria to reduce the transparency requirement from 50% to 0% for the building façade with Adams Street frontage.

3. Applicant to receive a deviation for the JRTC Greyhound Terminal from Sec. 656.361.20 Streetscape Design Standards to provide alternate streetscape design including landscape, hardscape, and lighting deviations for the frontage adjacent to Johnson Street.

Hmmm......You guys will love this Jacksonville beige scheme.  Give me a few minutes to upload the renderings.

[Dashing Dan]

Disappointing, to be sure.

[thelakelander]

Color me unimpressed. Looks like another lost opportunity of making a functional need a major asset for the pedestrian scale environment.