"DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, WE ARE JTA, WHAT YOU CALL EXPERTS..."

[Ocklawaha]

" A Skyway, From Nowhere to Somewhere in the Future "


"The JTA's Loudest Skyway Critic considers the history, and the future of this unwanted lemon, and offers a few thoughts on how to make lemonade."


"What if you built a Transit System and Nobody Came To Ride..." ABC News

"What if you built a Transit System, and NOBODY CAME TO RIDE!" Was the recent headline of Charles Herman's, ABC News story. This horror story was carried around the world, something Herman himself may not have been fully aware of. I watched it, squirming on my sofa, on the 19Th floor of a Medellin, Colombia, high-rise. I caught hell the next day when fellow railroad engineers and planners suggested that the story was about something "Bob thought up".


"We've Done it! We've shot the passenger train!" Penn Central

So let's roll the clock back to the 1970's. You might recall that the private railroads had lost the battle for the passenger train, when the Federal Government took railroad tax dollars and built a parallel Interstate Highway system. That the whole exercise was orchestrated by railroad legal departments and cronies in the Nixon administration is obvious from the Penn Central Executive that went dancing through the office tower shouting to the top of his lungs, "We've done it! We've shot the passenger Train!" Railroads would all soon be dead and with them would go every manner of railroad technology. The Age of Aquarius had no room for steel wheels on steel rails. The moniker of the day was "Monorails are the future of all of mankind, soon with PRT we would all have a Monorail vechicle just seconds from the door." Funny since Monorails had been around almost as long as railroads and had never gotten beyond the novelty stage, suddenly Baxter Ward, Los Angeles County Supervisor was proposing a huge Mega system all over the LA basin. Streetcar systems were being talked about in, San Diego and Hollywood, but it was mostly talk. Railroad savvy Interurban fans realized the national conspiracy that had killed the great Pacific Electric Railroad in Southern California, and they set to work placing that tale into a cartoon of epic box office success, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"


Did JTA frame Roger Rabbit?

Meanwhile in Jacksonville, a 1971 report by the Area Planning Board, climbed on board with a Buck Rogers, plan of their own. What if "The Bold New City Of The South," could build a monorail metro system? The fortune 500's, the NFL and perhaps some of Mickey's friends would beat a trail to our Northeast Florida Metropolis. I was indeed in on the plan. However far from it's "father" as my Colombian counterparts claimed, I was it's Nemesis. I wrote a plan based on a wild idea San Diego had to take a seldom used freight railroad line, and rebuild it, string overhead wire and purchase modern European style streetcars. San Diego said they would build 15 miles from downtown to the Mexican border with $86,000,000 Million Dollars. In Jacksonville, taking the best of San Diego's plan, linking it to our own former "S" line of the old Seaboard, from Union Station to Springfield, then returning on the old Fernandina and Jacksonville Railroad line, otherwise known as the Maxwell House Branch. To complete the loop, I considered a line from Union Station, over to Water to Independence to Bay, where it would intersect with the loop. At the time Jacksonville Shipyards was still downtown and there was still track in place from and along Bay across the front of Metropolitan Park and up into the Talleyrand District. To prevent it from having to compete with the political machine of JTA and City Hall, I proposed we build it was federal grants as a "Heritage Trolley". We could then always convert it to Light Rail at a later date.  


"There would be NO trolleys in Jacksonville, Heritage or otherwise...Instead of being the first City with such a system, we'll now follow another 50, maybe, someday... Bob Mann"

By 1984, the decision was firmly made, there would be NO trolleys in Jacksonville, Heritage or otherwise. We would cast our lot with the star ships and monorails, and never look back. In fact during this time JTA dumped the entire records, photos and ledgers of the old Traction System, and the City or contractors destroyed 4 perfectly good Jacksonville streetcars that suddenly had become eye-sores. Though the same cars had stood their ground since 1936, they were reduced to sawdust. The streetcar barns were torn down to make way for a new highway interchange and a freeway that was to run through the old Jacksonville Terminal yards. The interchange was never built at the site but the Skyway facility was! By 1987 the City was hard at work on the first .07 miles of the Monorail.


"The People Mover Thing was not for transportation but for political reasons," Bob Carr
Don't kid yourselves that the FTA and JTA are in bed on the BRT too, will we write the same story about BRT in 30 years? Wanna bet a $Billion dollars? Bob Mann

According to Representative Bob Carr, the "People Mover thing" was not for transportation reasons, but for political reasons. Washington, DC had decided to award 3 major Cities with downtown "People-Movers", a Federal gift project, to see if these new machines, also called enthusiastically labeled "Personal Rapid Transit Vehicles", would create a building surge and turn around years of downtown decay. Miami, Detroit and Jacksonville, won the awards, and the race was on for each City to raise the bar. Jacksonville announced the new system would carry 56,000 persons a day, Skyway critic Marvin Edwards, blames JTA for the wild numbers, as we counted down toward opening day, the projections were adjusted down to 30,000 daily, then to 18,000 daily, then again to 10,000 a day.


"The System would replace most surface buses downtown; it would carry 56,000 passengers a day" JTA  So we built ONE proper intermodal transfer terminal, so you can ride the bus, get on the Skyway, and go back where you started...Even Disney does that. Bob Mann

JTA had sold the system to the City fathers on the basis of it's huge ridership potential. The public hearings said it would replace most surface buses downtown, making downtown a walkable and more livable place. Quiet, swift electric trains would whisk commuters to and from a network of outlaying parking garages and bus transfer facilities. The politic was told, it's completely modern break from old fashioned streetcars. JCCI and JTA even falsified reports and insisted streetcars were slow, old, had to run down streets, and compete with automobiles. The hype was dangled in front of then Mayor Jake Godbold, who hung onto every word JTA uttered on the subject. They convinced Congress to dump half of $182,000,000 dollars into our system. But sticker shock hit when the daily ridership slowly peaked at a pitiful 1,200 a day. By 1993, ABC news among others was beating down the door at JTA and City Hall. In 1993, JTA member Miles Francis, shot back, "Until this thing is finished there is no way to measure it's performance or it's potential." The Federal Transit Administration issued a false statement of their own, that "We have NEVER supported it" in 1994. Two years later, the Skyway, was again floating in cash as the river crossing over the new Acosta Bridge was completed and the line into the Southbank opened. Reaching only 2.5 of it's originally planned 4+ miles, the "People Mover" was converted to a true Monorail. By 2002, the ridership had climbed to 2,871 persons a day, not even close to the projections of just the original segment. Banners spanned Bay Street, as a cartoon Monorail proclaimed "I'm Going To The Stadium". Suddenly the bubble burst, and the banners came down. The Skyway was now a hot political potato. Just a core 2 1/2 miles of what should have been a 5 or 6 mile railroad.


"It didn't meet projections through any fault of the Skyway; the City just un-developed it's downtown..." Steve Arrington, JTA. Jefferson Street Station, one of those stations where the "city" never even paved the parking lot...but then who parks or works there? Why isn't this station on the track side of the depot? Why aren't both of these stations on a Riverside Line? Bob Mann

Steve Arrington, Director of Engineering for the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, and Skyway apologist, said it's no secret that the numbers are not where we would like them to be. You have to understand, we didn't meet the projections not through any fault of our own or of the Skyway, it's because of a general downturn in the economy of downtown Jacksonville in the 1990's that led to a decrease in development. Other factors have come into play that we couldn't anticipate, such as higher parking fees and gas prices. But Arrington still believes in his monorail, "You just don't build a system like this for the here and now, you build it for 20 or 30 years into the future."


Mr. Arrington, your 30 years is up, we still stand at barely 3,000 daily riders, let's finish it. Take your cues from the "Urbanite Amateur Misfits," which offer JTA Millions of dollars of free consulting and can match your staff title for title. We don't want lip service or silly excuses, we want inclusion and results. Bob Mann

As the Skyway's number one critic, I'd have to still say in my opinion it should have NEVER been built. But what is done is done. We have dusted off the Light Rail Jacksonville plans and now look at ways to blend it all together. Frankly, using a less costly type of track system, we should revisit the Skyway, let's finish it to the Riverside office area, get it over the (always) blocked FEC railroad tracks to a San Marco Station, and let's finally take it to the stadium, coliseum, fairgrounds and Metropolitan Park. Tied to BRT, Mega-Parking, Trolley-Bus, Streetcars and commuter rail, we just might raise that bar beyond Miami and Detroit. As the third largest City on the East Coast of the United States, it's been a long, long wait for our train to arrive.  

TO LEARN MORE, This was Copied from "Jacksonville Transit Blog" at:  http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/

Ocklawaha
(Admin. feel free to move this story if you please)

[lindab]

I am really glad to hear that there were knowledgeable critics when the money was spent for this boondoggle. Good for you. Let's just suppose that there might be limited transit funds available in future.  Why do you want that money, assuming we could get it, to go to Skyway? Doesn't Skyway stand in the way of real transit? 

[Ocklawaha]

lindab, I'm still no great fan of monorails or our own Skyway. That said, however, is not to say that they don't offer something that the other modes don't. On the positive side they are clean, have expandable train car capacity, electric, quiet, and above traffic. The down side is they are not speed demons, hard to switch from track to track, custom builds and at least until fairly recently, shockingly expensive. "Ugly" is in the eyes of the beholder, some hate them in urban environments for "messing up the view", but some such as myself, see a certain beauty in their lines...(but then I think a DeDec V diesel bus engine is beautiful too).

Ever the "Transportation Planner", to trash the Skyway would be to completely waste the $200+ Million that has been sunk into it. JTA'S Steve Arrington, missed one very valid point in his defense, the Skyway doesn't reach the numbers because not one piece of it was ever completed. Rosa Parks, was NEVER intended to be the end of the line, neither was "King's Avenue" or the Maintenance Facility. The Prime Osbourne branch was complete but only because that is where the original maintenance shop was...near JTA's Myrtle Avenue shops.
To invest another $500 Million now for a "complete" system would seem a bargain compared to the BRT fiasco.
The original "projections" had this thing running all over Duval County. But the core was Stadium, Shands at 8Th Street, Riverside and San Marco.

The way I see it, none of us want to surrender 300 parking spaces, and 2 lanes, on Bay Street, for an endless string of buses. What ridership the Skyway has will be wrecked by the bus freeway. Since our last Skyway extension's several cool things have happened in the Monorail business. Other Cities have picked up their own systems, equipment is now available off the shelf, and track has come WAY DOWN in price. Yes, it's somewhat different then what we already have, we'd lose the overhead "bridge" effect to single beams on new sections.
Hitachi is offering a system they say is less then high end LRT to build. They offer a "Walk through train" with peak capacities of 10-20,000 per hour. Our current system only does about 3,000 per hour.

Completed the system "COULD" do most of what they originally promised, we would need a "Rosa Parks" somewhere in Riverside/5-Points...I'd suggest a rebuild of Francis Lytle to do that job. We also need one IN San Marco, needs a relief to the FEC tracks. In fact it was subject of a law suit way back in the 1920's!! JTA's Potato-Chip-Truck-Trolley failed because no one could rely on getting back to work after lunch due to train traffic back ups. Taking the Skyway over I-95 would give us some much needed "shock and awe" to visitors who rush past to see the Mouse or the Sun farther South. It would access the new Hilton, and could end right alongside the possible future commuter rail at Atlantic and the FEC, where we'd build another "Rosa Parks". This would make for an easy walk into San Marco Village or even Saint Nicholas. The Stadium Line would be much more then just a venue transport system. By building the next "Rosa Parks" at Phillip Randolph and Arlington Expressway, along with expanding the parking garage to the "MOTHER OF ALL PARKING GARAGES", we could create a facility with it's own dedicated traffic lanes for the rush hour crowds that pour over the Matthews every day. Lastly the blotched Jefferson Street and Prime Osbourne Stops could be continued another 2 blocks to loop South through the Prime Parking lot and down to ground level at a track-side boarding facility for LRT and Commuter Rail. The Northward extension to Shands is frankly "pie in the sky" since the old "S" line goes right through it. But a slight one more station into FCCJ's North edge so students would have direct access without playing dodge-car would be nice. After school hours, the station could be designed so the FCCJ access is blocked off and the Park Access is allowed.

If we could do this for say half of the projected BRT funding, then consider the BRT "FINISHED" downtown. It's what JTA promised, it's what we invested in. It hasn't failed because Jacksonville wouldn't conform to some imagined JTA fantasy. It has failed because it is completely out of touch with where this city wants to go.

Ocklawaha

[lindab]

Thank you for that really complete answer. Like most downtown lovers, Skyway is not a thing of beauty.
I have a compliment for you and the few others who opposed BRT. A consultant at the Riverside-downtown bus/trolley meeting told me that he and the JTA felt really beat up after the BRT public meeting and with good reason. I think you must have done a number on their heads. Suggest you keep up the public drumbeat. I gave them my two cents worth.

[thelakelander]

If we could do this for say half of the projected BRT funding, then consider the BRT "FINISHED" downtown. It's what JTA promised, it's what we invested in. It hasn't failed because Jacksonville wouldn't conform to some imagined JTA fantasy. It has failed because it is completely out of touch with where this city wants to go.

Ocklawaha

JTA's BRT budget for downtown is somewhere around $25 million.  This great of an expansion of the skyway would be hundreds of millions above that number.  How much is too much, to the point that skyway expansion takes away from the length of a regional transit system that would still be needed to feed riders into the skyway?

[Ocklawaha]

My best guess is somewhere around $100-200 Million to finish it downtown. This due to the newer track being offered from Hitachi and that the base operations core is already complete. We don't need shops, parts, control systems or signals, just extensions of what we have. For the time being we even have ready made stations at Kings Avenue Hilton, over the FEC at Atlantic, we will need a BRT and/or commuter rail station anyway, why not lower the Skyway to surface level for those last 300 feet and end it alongside buses, trains and trolleys. Over in Riverside, we "could" use Francis Lytle, which would open a world of "other then transit grants". At Union Terminal, we get "intermodal grants" to curve South over the parking lot behind Osbourne and bring the line down to track level for the last 300' along side one of the rebuilt commuter rail platforms.

The FCCJ - North station could also tap a wealth of "other then FTA" grants. All in all, I bet if given a shopping trip down grantsmanship street, I bet I could get us 80% or better. Suire someone is going to say they don't do 80/20 grants anymore... BULL S$$T! A creative Grants writer simply shops the field. Trash cans? There's a grant for that. Sidewalks? One for that too. Shrubs and Trees? Got one for that too... and so it goes.

That only leaves us with downtown TROLLEY-BUSES and real STREETCARS to complete the scene. JTA? Do you need a grants person with more then FTA on the mind? How would $30-60 Million sound if we could kill BRT downtown and come out with something far more advanced?  

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

Can you post some images of the Hitachi track system?

[downtownparks]

I think laying tracks and running streetcars that interact with the skyway would be a better use of money. A street car line down Bay St, and up Main (from Rosa Parks), and down Riverside Ave would be every bit as effective as expanding the skyway, only far less expensive.

[Ocklawaha]

Here is the difference in the tracks of the two systems, first TYPICAL Skyway type track $$$


Next the new Hitachi track, which is much less costly and still works for our trains!


If we reach the stadium where we will need a couple of larger capacity trains, check out the inside of the Hitachi train... YEAH! You CAN walk from car to car, just like rail.


The final photo is some of Hitachi's trackwork in one of the systems they already have up and running. It sure wouldn't cost us to talk to them... BTW, they have a movie of this scene online so you can see the turnout working.

I think laying tracks and running streetcars that interact with the skyway would be a better use of money.

Of course Downtown Parks, you are singing my tune. What I am speaking of with a completed Skyway, is the "NETWORK" effect of good layered transit. You are right on the money with mixing streetcars. I'd even toss in either real ELECTRIC-trolley-buses or reproduction 1920's style buses (mass produced in the UK) for the lesser downtown shuttle services. They would look so cool with our real streetcars and only Disney's Mainstreet USA could match us for looks but not for miles! Give the streetcars a complimentary grid such as Water-Independence-Newnan-Beaver-Randolph-Duval-Lee-Water as a core, then branch into Springfield and into 5-Points via Park. (give the Skyway Bay and Riverside). When you lay the routes over eachother, it forms a fantastic interlocked pattern, and we are only a vote away!
[/color] [/b]

Ocklawaha

[Charles Hunter]

Ock, could the longer Hitachi cars / train-sets negotiate the small radius turns in the Skyway? especially the Bay/Hogan curve?

[Ocklawaha]

I'm not sure Charles, but they offer an off-the-shelf model that comes in 3 sizes. The "small" would seem to fit our Bay-Hogan radius. With our advanced control system, we could also have a set of larger cars working the other or newer routes. Keep in mind as with any train, track gauge is not going to dictate train length. It might allow for tighter curves which = more resistance, which then would = train length. But any newer route without the restrictions could go with STADIUM size trains.

Ocklawaha
(I'm doomed, my giant purple crayon has been stolen)