Skyway Could Be Torn Down.....In 2036!

[iMarvin]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

I think you misunderstand the wiki link for metromover.  The 30k figure is for all Metromover ridership.  However, a significant chunk of its 30k daily riders transfer to it from Metrorail.

I didn't misunderstand. I went on wikipedia to look up the ridership. If we get commuter rail, people would transfer to the skyway, but the difference would be that the metromover is a complete skyway, whereas the skyway is not.

Except what you actually said was this;

Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation.

Lake simply pointed out that you'd misunderstood which figures you were citing, since those figures do indeed include a significant number of passengers connecting from other transportation sources, when you said they did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metromover#Ridership

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

No transfer  ... just a 1/2 mile walk from my office on Forsyth St. to The Landing, and then waiting for a "trolley" that has a 65 minute headway on Saturdays. 

But it does drop me off at my back door in Avondale. 

The P4 is actually a better choice for me.

This is another of the 'issues' that I've been trying to get an explanation for from JTA.  BTW - it's not about the weekend service as much as it's about frequency and staggering of routes through riverside/avondale.

Short Version - 2 roads -Park and St. John's AVe - 4 busses - P4, R5, RT, WS12 - 3 of them leave DT within 10 minutes of another (add a 4th if you count the WS-2 to FSCJ) and the other 30 minutes.  You have 2 lines spaced typically 5-8 minutes apart on each, Park (R5,WS12) & St. John's (P4, RT), but then it's another 50 minutes for the next 'round' of busses to come by.  If they would stagger the busses every 12 minutes, you would never have more than a 20-25 minute wait for each leg and if you're willing to walk a little more, then you would essentially have a bus coming by every 10 minutes!!! 

Again, I stress, that they're so able to do more with less that it dumbfounds me, and when questioned I get blank crickets for answers.

[ChriswUfGator]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

I think you misunderstand the wiki link for metromover.  The 30k figure is for all Metromover ridership.  However, a significant chunk of its 30k daily riders transfer to it from Metrorail.

I didn't misunderstand. I went on wikipedia to look up the ridership. If we get commuter rail, people would transfer to the skyway, but the difference would be that the metromover is a complete skyway, whereas the skyway is not.

Except what you actually said was this;

Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation.

Lake simply pointed out that you'd misunderstood which figures you were citing, since those figures do indeed include a significant number of passengers connecting from other transportation sources, when you said they did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metromover#Ridership

Gotcha, I understand now, it looks like it was not you who misunderstood.

[Dashing Dan]

No transfer  ... just a 1/2 mile walk from my office on Forsyth St. to The Landing, and then waiting for a "trolley" that has a 65 minute headway on Saturdays. 

But it does drop me off at my back door in Avondale. 

The P4 is actually a better choice for me.

This is another of the 'issues' that I've been trying to get an explanation for from JTA.  BTW - it's not about the weekend service as much as it's about frequency and staggering of routes through riverside/avondale.

Short Version - 2 roads -Park and St. John's AVe - 4 busses - P4, R5, RT, WS12 - 3 of them leave DT within 10 minutes of another (add a 4th if you count the WS-2 to FSCJ) and the other 30 minutes.  You have 2 lines spaced typically 5-8 minutes apart on each, Park (R5,WS12) & St. John's (P4, RT), but then it's another 50 minutes for the next 'round' of busses to come by.  If they would stagger the busses every 12 minutes, you would never have more than a 20-25 minute wait for each leg and if you're willing to walk a little more, then you would essentially have a bus coming by every 10 minutes!!! 

Again, I stress, that they're so able to do more with less that it dumbfounds me, and when questioned I get blank crickets for answers.

There's also the WS-6 on Herschel, which runs every 60 minutes, all day every day.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

^^^ A little off topic, but more to my point.

They do the same thing along the Lem Turner corridor - staggering the L8 & L7 so that from golfair to soutel there is a bus every 15 minutes heading downtown.  and there is a bus that goes by Shands every 15 minutes.  And there is a bus that goes by Edgwood & Lem Turner every 15 minutes.

My biggest argument about the BRT is that they're going to fuck this all up by implementing BRT down the corridor.  They're not adding to the service, they're modifying the service by essentially turning the L8 into a BRT line.  Really?  Spend the money on 2 more regular busses and you cut the service down to 5 minute intervals along this corridor.  BRT is 10 - yet to be seen. 

My way is the cost of two busses.  Yearly costs of two busses and two drivers.  I give them 5 minute service down the Lem Turner Corridor and ease up the 30 minute headways on the rest of their routes as both busses are interliner service to Ramona and the Avenues, L8 &  L7 repspectively.

Their way is the cost of 4 busses.  Modified streets.  New BRT labled stations.  and potentially Traffic Signal modification software. and the upkeep and wear and tear on more equipment and still adding 2 more drivers.  10 minute service - and the busses don't stop everywhere - only at BRT designated stops. 

The biggest difference between their way and my way is that mine is more streamlined, doesn't affect current service but comes out of JTA's pocket.  They get Federal assistance with the BRT. 

If you ain't talkin' dollars then you ain't makin' sense. - Young Jeezy

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

There's also the WS-6 on Herschel, which runs every 60 minutes, all day every day.

I forgot about that one. 

OK, all of these busses run on basically an hour headway, with the exception of the trolley being every 30 minutes.  It's undesirable, but workable if you stagger the busses.  The headtimes of the individual busses are still 60 minutes, but there's a bus going down the corridor every 15 minutes (possible 10-12 if we can work in the WS6) so if you're just trying to get to a general area - the system works like a charm.  If you're trying to get downtown, the system works like a charm. 

The way that it's set up, you get a lot of angry birds time waiting on the bus instead of riding on the bus.

[iMarvin]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

I think you misunderstand the wiki link for metromover.  The 30k figure is for all Metromover ridership.  However, a significant chunk of its 30k daily riders transfer to it from Metrorail.

I didn't misunderstand. I went on wikipedia to look up the ridership. If we get commuter rail, people would transfer to the skyway, but the difference would be that the metromover is a complete skyway, whereas the skyway is not.

Except what you actually said was this;

Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation.

Lake simply pointed out that you'd misunderstood which figures you were citing, since those figures do indeed include a significant number of passengers connecting from other transportation sources, when you said they did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metromover#Ridership

Gotcha, I understand now, it looks like it was not you who misunderstood.

Lol, it's alright. 

[ChriswUfGator]

Well frankly, now that we're talking about JTA, that is really my main motivation in why I believe the streetcar should not in any way rely on the skyway. I just didn't want to come out loud and say it. It is looking like it may be set up as a separate light rail authority rather than under JTA. Get where I'm going here? If it is kept away from them, JTA can't possibly f*uck it up. Drag them into it, by some psuedo-merger with the skyway, asking for special scheduling, or by designing it in such a way that a streetcar passenger winds up having to rely on JTA to get to a significant number of streetcar destinations, and we're really no better off than we started, are we?

Keep JTA out of it, and it might actually be real public transit with real service, independent of the JTA buffoons.

[ChriswUfGator]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

I think you misunderstand the wiki link for metromover.  The 30k figure is for all Metromover ridership.  However, a significant chunk of its 30k daily riders transfer to it from Metrorail.

I didn't misunderstand. I went on wikipedia to look up the ridership. If we get commuter rail, people would transfer to the skyway, but the difference would be that the metromover is a complete skyway, whereas the skyway is not.

Except what you actually said was this;

Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation.

Lake simply pointed out that you'd misunderstood which figures you were citing, since those figures do indeed include a significant number of passengers connecting from other transportation sources, when you said they did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metromover#Ridership

Gotcha, I understand now, it looks like it was not you who misunderstood.

Lol, it's alright. 

No problem, when you're right you're right! Thanks for sharing the link.

[iMarvin]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

I think you misunderstand the wiki link for metromover.  The 30k figure is for all Metromover ridership.  However, a significant chunk of its 30k daily riders transfer to it from Metrorail.

I didn't misunderstand. I went on wikipedia to look up the ridership. If we get commuter rail, people would transfer to the skyway, but the difference would be that the metromover is a complete skyway, whereas the skyway is not.

Except what you actually said was this;

Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation.

Lake simply pointed out that you'd misunderstood which figures you were citing, since those figures do indeed include a significant number of passengers connecting from other transportation sources, when you said they did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metromover#Ridership

Gotcha, I understand now, it looks like it was not you who misunderstood.

Lol, it's alright. 

No problem, when you're right you're right! Thanks for sharing the link.

No problem!

[iMarvin]

Well frankly, now that we're talking about JTA, that is really my main motivation in why I believe the streetcar should not in any way rely on the skyway. I just didn't want to come out loud and say it. It is looking like it may be set up as a separate light rail authority rather than under JTA. Get where I'm going here? If it is kept away from them, JTA can't possibly f*uck it up. Drag them into it, by some psuedo-merger with the skyway, asking for special scheduling, or by designing it in such a way that a streetcar passenger winds up having to rely on JTA to get to a significant number of streetcar destinations, and we're really no better off than we started, are we?

Keep JTA out of it, and it might actually be real public transit with real service, independent of the JTA buffoons.

Maybe JTA could hand it over to a different authority...

[ChriswUfGator]

Well frankly, now that we're talking about JTA, that is really my main motivation in why I believe the streetcar should not in any way rely on the skyway. I just didn't want to come out loud and say it. It is looking like it may be set up as a separate light rail authority rather than under JTA. Get where I'm going here? If it is kept away from them, JTA can't possibly f*uck it up. Drag them into it, by some psuedo-merger with the skyway, asking for special scheduling, or by designing it in such a way that a streetcar passenger winds up having to rely on JTA to get to a significant number of streetcar destinations, and we're really no better off than we started, are we?

Keep JTA out of it, and it might actually be real public transit with real service, independent of the JTA buffoons.

Maybe JTA could hand it over to a different authority...

I wish JTA would be eliminated altogether and replaced with something under the direct control of our city government, rather than being this hybrid state/city agency where everyone is obligated to foot bill but nobody has any control over what they do. That would fix the problem entirely. But, alternately, if we can come up with a system that works and is independent of JTA, like streetcars operated by a separate agency, I'm happy with that too. If JTA wanted to turn the skyway over to someone else to run, fine, anything is an improvement over JTA. Anything. Including a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters.

[Ocklawaha]

The way that the system is set up right now, transfers just don't make sense.  The headways are too long and you can't tell enough from the schedules to know when the buses are supposed to arrive at transfer points. 

Transfers would be less of a pain if you could look at a smartphone and know the bus locations in real time.  Other systems already have this capability, but the JTA is behind the curve.

Walking downtown is awful in the summer so I've been doing a lot of driving to and from downtown lately, with the parking tickets to show for it.

When I'm talking about transfers this is what I'm talking about and its a foreign concept to JTA. We are already a low wage city, something that might work for us for business relocation but sucks for the citizen and quality of life issues. If that low wage workforce doesn't have year round access to cheap, dependable transit then they become disenfranchised. While transit isn't a solve all social problems type of service it can make a huge impact in quality of life issues. Carry this same idea over to the wealthy commuter, and given good, dependable service he/she is more likely to also be on that bus. Argue with that all you want but when someone like the Weavers walks into Publix don't you think the 2 for 1 prices get their attention? Currently with a hub and spokes system (like we have) dispersed over a greater number of streets (IE: one street per route for example) and the use of clustering schedules, where a broad assortment of end to end bus routes will arrive and depart from Rosa Parks, lets say 4 times per hour, transfers become a traffic builder. Transfers basically give bus riders a 2 for 1 deal but it may come close to doubling the ridership, if needed a slight fare increase can make up the difference.

Currently JTA has neither the transfer system or the scheduling to effect this type of service. Every change of buses require a fresh fare deposit which equals lost time and that equals lost fuel and money. A transfer system would make a change of buses/streetcar/Skyway a seamless process.

One last bitching point, WATER TAXIS! Okay so they've expanded the routes and the taxi's can go to the Arts Market and the Metropolitan Park landing. For all of their talk and all of their studies about riverine commuting
the Water Taxi's are not part of the transit system. With transfers the bus could collect the water taxi fare, and the water taxi could collect the bus fare, again making it seamless and a small part of the overall network.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Well frankly, now that we're talking about JTA, that is really my main motivation in why I believe the streetcar should not in any way rely on the skyway. I just didn't want to come out loud and say it. It is looking like it may be set up as a separate light rail authority rather than under JTA. Get where I'm going here? If it is kept away from them, JTA can't possibly f*uck it up. Drag them into it, by some psuedo-merger with the skyway, asking for special scheduling, or by designing it in such a way that a streetcar passenger winds up having to rely on JTA to get to a significant number of streetcar destinations, and we're really no better off than we started, are we?

Keep JTA out of it, and it might actually be real public transit with real service, independent of the JTA buffoons.

Maybe JTA could hand it over to a different authority...

Marvin, it's not JTA'S to hand to anyone. Thus far the streetcar is a completely independent project.

OCKLAWAHA

[iMarvin]

Well frankly, now that we're talking about JTA, that is really my main motivation in why I believe the streetcar should not in any way rely on the skyway. I just didn't want to come out loud and say it. It is looking like it may be set up as a separate light rail authority rather than under JTA. Get where I'm going here? If it is kept away from them, JTA can't possibly f*uck it up. Drag them into it, by some psuedo-merger with the skyway, asking for special scheduling, or by designing it in such a way that a streetcar passenger winds up having to rely on JTA to get to a significant number of streetcar destinations, and we're really no better off than we started, are we?

Keep JTA out of it, and it might actually be real public transit with real service, independent of the JTA buffoons.

Maybe JTA could hand it over to a different authority...

I wish JTA would be eliminated altogether and replaced with something under the direct control of our city government, rather than being this hybrid state/city agency where everyone is obligated to foot bill but nobody has any control over what they do. That would fix the problem entirely. But, alternately, if we can come up with a system that works and is independent of JTA, like streetcars operated by a separate agency, I'm happy with that too. If JTA wanted to turn the skyway over to someone else to run, fine, anything is an improvement over JTA. Anything. Including a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters.

I agree. JTA just doesn't really understand how to do things (realated to transit) correctly.