Some church requests for tithes.

[Expree]

     There are all kinds of aspects to this religious thing.  Tithing, churches, belief in the existence of a god and the historical Jesus, the different sects, our tradition of being religious in the main, man’s spiritual aspects and needs, etc.  These aspects have been with us for centuries.

     I discovered recently a man considered to be the first serious atheist.  He is Jean Meslier, born in the Ardennes in 1664.  He was a priest, and is called the Atheist Priest.  For several years just before his death in 1729, he wrote “The Testament”, which he wished published only after his death.  He lived in Europe when the church was very powerful, and kings ruled by divine right.  Abuse from the church, the nobility and the king’s circle upon the common man was heavy. Meslier influenced Voltaire, Thomas Paine, d’Holbach, Dupuis, Thomas Jefferson, etc.  He chose not to offer the Testament to the public while alive probably because he would have been hanged or burned, as were some others who sought to speak their minds against the church. 

     The following is from page 577 of the book, where he sums up his work.  It seems relevant to these postings, even though it is from the early17th century, from a priest who perceived what was really going on in the realm of politics and religion in his era, from a priest who rebelled.   

     â€œAll these arguments are as conclusive as they can be: it is enough just to pay a little attention to the evidence.  And so it is clearly demonstrated, by all these arguments that I have put forth above, that all the religions of the world are, as I said at the beginning of this writing, only human inventions, and that everything they teach us or make us believe are only errors, illusions, lies, and impostures invented by scoffers, swindlers, and hypocrites to deceive men, or by shrewd and crafty politicians to hold men in check and do whatever they want to the ignorant people (who blindly and foolishly believe everything they are told comes from God) and claim that it is useful and expedient to make men believe in the same thing, on the pretext, as they say, that it is “necessary that the common man not know very many truths and that he believe in many falsehoods”.
     And since all these kinds of errors, illusions and impostures are the source and cause of countless evils, abuses, and viciousness in the world, and the even the tyranny, which makes so many people groan on the earth, also tries hard to hide itself under the attractive but false and detestable pretext of religion, I am very right to say that this whole hodgepodge of religions and political laws, such as there are at present, were in fact only mysteries of iniquity.”

All books are divisible into two classes: books of the hour, and the books of all time. (John Ruskin - 1865)

[simms3]

I dont know how to embed, so here is a link.  If someone would pm me with how to I will update it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0

This is how my former church was spending my tithe, on nonsense such as this.

I fled from there for many reasons and now I attend a church that gives away to other charities and organizations half of what it takes in.  All of its financial statements are posted online and I know what my paastor brings home.

There are some abuses out there, lots of them, but please don't tar an entire faith with the same brush.  There are a lot of bad things to be undone.

OMG that is the funniest thing I have ever seen!  Wow.  After further investigating Pastor Stovall, I found out he is putting out books and holding seminars, etc etc.  Seems like he really is treating priesthood as a career, LOL.

I agree religious and charitable are two different things.  Measurably, Europe is far less of either than America.  (I believe you can look at how religious a society is by looking at church attendance...I know many people will say they are religious and don't need church to be so, but I believe attending the right church is very necessary to strengthening a real relationship with your god, whoever that may be...are you seriously going to devote time to Him on your own by yourself at home?)

I also believe (and the evidence overwhelmingly points to this) that religious people happen to be more charitable, so there is a correlation.  You can be charitable and not religious, but maybe you're neither.  If you really are religious and take the Word seriously, then you are most likely charitable.

I mean for all the atheists out there nowadays, you don't hear of atheist charities and atheist homeless centers and atheist this that or the other.  Atheists who do donate probably inadvertently donate to organizations run by a bunch of religious people or a specific religion.  FWIW, some of the most charitable nations are the wealthy Muslim majority nations (not the large, poor, or extremist nations but the developed, tolerant, wealthy nations).

[dougskiles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0

This is how my former church was spending my tithe, on nonsense such as this.

I fled from there for many reasons and now I attend a church that gives away to other charities and organizations half of what it takes in.  All of its financial statements are posted online and I know what my paastor brings home.

Something overlooked in this conversation is that we are so fortunate to live in a country where you are free to choose where and how you want to worship.  I have no problem with the ministry of Pastor Stoval - including his videos, books, etc.  And I have no problem with you choosing to leave because it doesn't suit your style.  But just because it doesn't suite your style, doesn't make it wrong.  I am not a member of Celebration Church but I have friends who are and they love it.  God reaches out to his children in many ways.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

My $.02:

Tithing is optional, period.  BUT - The bible tells you its 10%, and your faith should actually dictate how much more or less to give.  If you've turned yourself completely over to God, then you know that He will provide, you give your tithes whether feast or famine and you don't have to worry about the rest because He will tend to His flock.  

OK, that covers about .001% of everyone out there, so for the rest of you, the church does happen to be a business.  They do count on the 10% from everyone, and they expect those who can contribute more to do so.  And they do ask for additional money for construction projects, community outreach, over-seas ministry and every little other thing the church does.  This is an above and beyond contribution.  If you consider yourself a 'Christian' and have given your heart to Jesus and you're still having a problem with tithing - I suggest you re-read my first sentence and then set up a one-on-one with your pastor and reconsider if church is actually for you.

[Cricket]

I agree religious and charitable are two different things.  Measurably, Europe is far less of either than America.  (I believe you can look at how religious a society is by looking at church attendance...I know many people will say they are religious and don't need church to be so, but I believe attending the right church is very necessary to strengthening a real relationship with your god, whoever that may be...are you seriously going to devote time to Him on your own by yourself at home?)

I also believe (and the evidence overwhelmingly points to this) that religious people happen to be more charitable, so there is a correlation.  You can be charitable and not religious, but maybe you're neither.  If you really are religious and take the Word seriously, then you are most likely charitable.

I mean for all the atheists out there nowadays, you don't hear of atheist charities and atheist homeless centers and atheist this that or the other.  Atheists who do donate probably inadvertently donate to organizations run by a bunch of religious people or a specific religion.  FWIW, some of the most charitable nations are the wealthy Muslim majority nations (not the large, poor, or extremist nations but the developed, tolerant, wealthy nations).

This is the most ridiculous post I have read in a long time. I suggest you don't spout off things just because you have a gut feeling. If you happen to have statistics on church attendance by continent per capita, let us have it. Moreover, what church in your opinion is the right church?

I have opinions too but I don't point to them as "overwhelming evidence." For example, of all the denominations I believe the Catholic Church, the Episcopalian Church and Muslims are among the most giving but I base that on the fact that they are the predominant religions. But I don't believe they report on how much money they contribute to charitable causes. According to "Giving USA" 75% of all giving originates with individuals but there is no way to break that out into religious or non-religious donors.

http://www.pursuantmedia.com/givingusa/0510/

And what makes you think that not going to church makes you an atheist?

[wsansewjs]

I agree religious and charitable are two different things.  Measurably, Europe is far less of either than America.  (I believe you can look at how religious a society is by looking at church attendance...I know many people will say they are religious and don't need church to be so, but I believe attending the right church is very necessary to strengthening a real relationship with your god, whoever that may be...are you seriously going to devote time to Him on your own by yourself at home?)

Disclaimer: I am an agnostic. I truly do respect all forms of religions. The way you explained and described above sounds like having a personal relationship with God AT home is a bad thing. It strikes a similarity in preaching.


For the rest of you, some of you have completely missed the topic here, and few of you have bring up great points. The problem in this thread is that there is not enough justification to support behind every opinions and arguments pointing to the topic.

-Josh

[Timkin]

Religion is one of those topics ,where, pretty much everyone has a different viewpoint, which is why I stated , I made no comment in this thread with the intent of deliberately offending anyone. This topic is very touchy and it would, I would imagine be easy to "step on toes" , which I personally have no desire to do.   For me personally , Tithing would be what I honestly feel I can afford to do.  But that is just me.

I happen to believe you do not have to attend Church to believe in or serve God, and that giving to charity, or giving money to a homeless person, or donating clothing , food ,etc to others is the same or better than Tithing.  That is NOT to say that I think going to Church, or tithing is a bad thing...to each their own. When it becomes "expected" to dole out money that one really does not have  with the notion presented that "god will provide" , I'm afraid I do not agree.   There are people out in the world that have never heard of or have seen a church , never laid eyes on a bible , live in the poorest of conditions. How can they live by ,something that was never taught to them , let alone give, when they have absolutely nothing to give. By contrast, the poorest of any of us , live like kings compared to some of those people.    I feel there are true "believers" out there and there are plenty, what the bible itself refers to as " false Prophets"  and the examples, as set forth in this thread's original post, to me at least, falls to the latter.  I have no problem whatsoever with tithing or charity and I personally feel that I do give what I can afford to ,to both.. but some "leaders" of Churches are as corrupt as any corrupt Politician ever thought of being, and would inflict guilt and pressure on a congregation that is not fair OR necessary and have no guilt whatsoever in doing so.

[fsujax]

This whole thread is offensive and it was no accident it was started on a Sunday. I wasn't going to post, but couldnt help myself. Believe it or not there are some of us on this site who love the urban core as much as anyone and yes we do go to church and tithe (gasp!!). How could that be?? and just to clarify tithing does not equal Salvation!

[Garden guy]

I think churches should be taxed like any other business....it is a business reguardless of what anyone says...

[Doctor_K]

I think churches should be taxed like any other business....it is a business reguardless of what anyone says...

This is one of the rare moments GG and I agree. 

Just like legalized marijuana - tax the sh*t out of it/them.

[ben says]

This whole thread is offensive and it was no accident it was started on a Sunday. I wasn't going to post, but couldnt help myself. Believe it or not there are some of us on this site who love the urban core as much as anyone and yes we do go to church and tithe (gasp!!). How could that be?? and just to clarify tithing does not equal Salvation!

"All thinking men are atheists"

One of the better Hemingway quotes...ever.

[danno]

We also have lost the idea that the church is the people.... Not a building with 4 walls.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Stephen:  Naive.  . 

Danno:  Another lost idea is that the gov't is for and by.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Stephen:  Naive.  . 

Danno:  Another lost idea is that the gov't is for and by.

yes.  that's me,  Naive.

Redneck, tell me, have you actually read the New Testament?

Just your comment. 

I have not read the New Testament from start to finish.  I have been forced to learn bits and pieces during my childhood.  I do find it to be a great collection of stories following the life of Jesus, especially the different viewponts of the gospels, but Stephen, they are nothing more to me than a collection of stories.  Aesop wrote a nice collection of stories, too.  But I don't beleive that a fox or a duck will lead me to a better place when I leave this world any more than a great speaker of the past.

[wsansewjs]

They are all just part of the greater con to you arent they?

Ouchie! Quite touche there!

-Josh