Rick Scott's Argument Pitful and Untrue, Legislature to Sue over High Speed Rail

[thelakelander]

I disagree with the concept of yanking HSR funds for Florida's local projects.  If our localized issues are so important to us, we should first make an effort to get them started at a local level before openly bashing the feds and then immediately asking them for handouts.  Btw, I think the route's current corridor plan and how Rick Scott should kill it (since that's his desire) are two completely different issues.  The way he's handling this and Sunrail are nothing but negatives anyway you look at it, as far as future federal/state funding assistance will assist local projects going forward.  If things don't change, we could be easily looking at least a decade long delay on the implementation of many projects we've advocated here.

[thelakelander]

Interesting:

Evidence eludes Scott on high-speed rail

On Tuesday, Rick Scott said he’s “yet to see any evidence that Florida taxpayers would not be on the hook” for the cost of the proposed high-speed rail line linking Orlando and Tampa.

Then, on Wednesday â€" the day the governor contested a state Supreme Court lawsuit seeking to compel him to accept federal money to build the fast train â€" Scott said on TV that he still fears Florida would have to pay Washington back for its investment in the project if it fails.

But Orlando Sentinel reporter Dan Tracy also reports today that John Porcari, deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation, sent a letter dated Feb. 28 to the mayors of Orlando, Tampa and Lakeland, promising Washington won’t seek reimbursement of its $2.4 in grants. Tracy reports Porcari also wrote that in light of Orlando, Tampa and Lakeland offering to take responsibility for the rail line, the Federal Rail Administration “will make clear in any future cooperative agreements for the Tampa-Orlando project that the state of Florida does not bear any financial responsibility for the reimbursement obligation.”

Some might consider that evidence that the state won’t be on the hook for high-speed rail’s costs.

But not Rick Scott.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/orlando_opinionators/2011/03/evidence-eludes-scott-on-high-speed-rail.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+orlandosentinel%2Forlando_opinionators+%28Orlando+Opinionators%29

[thelakelander]

Another update released.  I give the leaders of Lakeland, Tampa, Orlando and Miami credit.  They are at least fighting to the end for what would be a major economic benefit for their communities.

Mayors of Lakeland, Tampa, Orlando and Miami to Speak on High-Speed Rail Fight

Scott has cited that risk as the reason he won't accept a $2.4 billion federal grant that would go toward building the rail line, which is planned to run down the median of Interstate 4.

The mayors' action comes after they received a letter from federal transportation officials.

In that letter to Fields and the mayors of Tampa, Orlando and Miami, the federal officials said state won't be on the hook for the $2.4 billion in stimulus money if the private company running the train scraps the project.

"In light of the cities' recent proposal, FRA (federal railroad administration) will make clear in any future cooperative agreements for the Tampa-Orlando project that the State of Florida does not bear any financial responsibility for this reimbursement obligation," wrote John Porcari, the transportaion authority's deputy secretary, on Feb. 28.

Scott has said he doesn't want the state to be on the hook for billions of dollars if the project doesn't work.

Porcari writes the state won't be liable.

"We will work further with the Interlocal Entity with respect to any reimbursement obligations, with the full understanding that the cities establishing the Interlocal Entity will also have no responsibility for such reimbursement payments."

full article: http://www.theledger.com/article/20110302/NEWS/110309933/1410?Title=Mayors-of-Lakeland-Tampa-Orlando-and-Miami-to-Speak-on-High-Speed-Rail-Fight

[Ocklawaha]

Looks to me like we have a choice between the lies that are the basis for the HSR project, which if accepted might well bring down the house on ALL HSR PROJECTS, and the lies that are evident whenever Scott's lips are moving. I agree that Scott's opinion of rail and mass transit in general are primitive at best, and criminal at worst, but I still don't see how anything he does in the HSR arena is going to have much impact on local, current or future projects that are not connected to flying trains. Florida HIGH SPEED RAIL should NOT BE BUILT, to do so simply arms the anti-rail side with a whole world of new data to throw in the face of every transit supporter in the country - many of which will then be eating a large serving of CROW. This railroad will be far more damaging then anything Scott can effect.

CSX has ridden the shirttail of SUNRAIL in order to build their new "super terminal" multimodal yard in Winter Haven, but killing that WORTHY project won't really stop them. Fact is the Florida East Coast and Norfolk Southern opened their own super facility in Titusville in 2009 to serve Central Florida, and CSX is feeling the heat. Yeah, they'd LOVE for the Florida or federal tax payer to pay for it, but if that's not possible, they will have to do it the same way the FEC-NS did... PAY FOR IT.

CSX is attempting to hold the JAXPORT cut-off in a similar "we need the money," lurch, but that too will not hold for long. They can continue to operate across town for the next 100 years and if Jacksonville was really out to save jobs and build our economy, there would be solutions BESIDES rebuilding the old Gross Cut-Off from Gross to Callahan. How about improving the Trout River Bridge situation? We already allowed them to rip up one of the two bridges that crossed the river from Panama Park to the Northside, and the other is pretty antiquated. West Jax Yard was closed completely and Moncrief has been down graded several times in the last 40 years, this is fixable if a creative mayor sat down with the railroad as asked how we can keep those jobs here.

Contrary to what many people have written here, that "CSX considers us small potatoes" and won't jump to serve JAXPORT, CSX KNOWS HOW GOOD THEY HAVE IT, AND THEY WANT MORE! We have already given them the moon and stars with a lock on our port... how fast do you think they'd move if the City-NS-FEC pushed for a north side belt line? Let's see, a million containers or more a year? It's a no brainer, but we need a leader.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

This suit will be over by Friday and a few things are very apparent:

1. This money will go to other states if we don't accept it for HSR. So the side argument about the ports and highways being better investments for the money should end.

2. Scott claims he's afraid the state would be on the hook if it failed and the USDOT has confirmed that it would not.

3. Scott still claims, even if it goes forward, he'll veto anything related to it.

This guy has turned Tallahassee into a circus.

Oral arguments in the case are set for 3 p.m. on Thursday. Both sides have asked the judge to rule by Friday.

That's the deadline U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood set for Florida to determine whether the project can go forward.

After that, the money will go to other states.

LaHood said Wednesday he has received a half dozen letters from governors or senators who want the $2.4 billion that Scott wants to turn down.

"America is ready for high-speed inter-city rail," LaHood said in a speech to the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. "And the fact that 35 states have accepted the money is proof of it."

full article: http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/gubernatorial/article1154753.ece

[thelakelander]

Ock, we need all the money we can get, even if we get creative and take advantages of innovative funding mechanisms. the delay won't be CSX.  The delay will come in the form of no state and less federal financial assistance in local projects that we can't afford to do on our own (ex. dredging the river, commuter rail, etc.).  For example, our commuter rail plans are dependent on getting 50% federal and 25% state dollars.  The mobility plan will help provide the local 25% of capital costs.  Take the state and federal dollars out of it and we'll need to find a new way to access the lost 75% in funding.  In that scenario, delay is inevitable. 

[Ocklawaha]

This suit will be over by Friday and a few things are very apparent:

1. This money will go to other states if we don't accept it for HSR. So the side argument about the ports and highways being better investments for the money should end.

GOOD! Because absolutely none of that money can go for anything BUT HSR, but accepting the money when we have such a bad project is equally wrong. Either way it's a bad deal, but I come down on the side of the railroad industry that says this thing is such a "dog" that it is going to wipe out all prospects of HSR being built again, or expanded in our lifetimes... In that case, better to sit out Scott and try for something a bit more logical later.

2. Scott claims he's afraid the state would be on the hook if it failed and the USDOT has confirmed that it would not.

Maybe not, but SOMEBODY will be when the trains stop rolling, and CSX tenders a bid to pick up the route as a freight mainline for pennies on the dollar. Who pays when the federal government screws the pooch?

3. Scott still claims, even if it goes forward, he'll veto anything related to it.

Could be this guy is a closet railfan? He's certainly be doing the bidding of the industry if he shuts er down.

This guy has turned Tallahassee into a circus.

Sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the clowns.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, we need all the money we can get, even if we get creative and take advantages of innovative funding mechanisms. the delay won't be CSX.  The delay will come in the form of no state and less federal financial assistance in local projects that we can't afford to do on our own (ex. dredging the river, commuter rail, etc.).  For example, our commuter rail plans are dependent on getting 50% federal and 25% state dollars.  The mobility plan will help provide the local 25% of capital costs.  Take the state and federal dollars out of it and we'll need to find a new way to access the lost 75% in funding.  In that scenario, delay is inevitable. 

The federal DOT will not punish Florida localities for Scott's actions, but as long as Scott is in Tally, no amount of Federal money is going to get sent through FDOT for local transit projects. But that's WITH or WITHOUT HSR, Scott doesn't believe in transit of any kind.

If the HSR is approved, it will do NOTHING to get Scott off the pot and send money for things like Streetcar or BRT.  If the HSR is not approved, same old shit - different day, nothing get's scott off the pot for any reason there either.

In other words, what Scott does or doesn't do with HSR is more a snapshot of his conservative think, then it is a plus or minus for local projects. Frankly, the guy hates rail and transit in general, Florida HSR and all the money in Washington isn't going to change that.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

So which part of his statement is "crazy" TU?

that would be the part where he says HSR should be used for connecting long distance cities, go at least 200mph, and only is viable in the northeast.....then endorse a plan to build HSR from Orlando's airport to Disney!

[FayeforCure]

So which part of his statement is "crazy" TU?

that would be the part where he says HSR should be used for connecting long distance cities, go at least 200mph, and only is viable in the northeast.....then endorse a plan to build HSR from Orlando's airport to Disney!

Excellent and may I add..........it would be TRUE rat rail, the kind Ock and others have complained about even the Orlando-Tampa route to be.

On the issue of LIAR Scott, here is another interesting tid bit:

While in D.C. for a national governor's convention on Friday morning, he met with Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood at LaHood's office in the southwest corridor of the city. A long, frank discussion ended with the governor promising to provide a list of what he needed to support the high-speed rail project by the end of this week. So far, Transportation officials confirm, he has not provided it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/01/rick-scott-scott-walker-most-isolated-gop-governor_n_829981.html

Altman/Joyner lawyer: Scott ‘amazingly’ claims he is not a state ‘official’


The lawyer for state Sens. Thad Altman, R-Viera, and Arthenia Joyner, D-Tampa, argues Gov. Rick Scott ”amazingly” claims he is not subject to a 2009 law creating a rail enterprise to oversee construction of a bullet train.

The legal teams for the legislators and Scott will square off at 3 p.m. tomorrow at the Florida Supreme Court to make their arguments over whether Scott erred by blocking the $2.7 billion high-speed rail project last month.

Earlier today, Scott’s lawyers claimed the legislators were suing because they were simply miffed their “police preferences” hadn’t prevailed in the political realm, and that the high court couldn’t step in and take ownership of the public works project â€" nor compel the Legislature or governor to spend federal money that hadn’t been appropriated yet.

But the response just filed by Altman’s Melbourne-based lawyer, Clifton McClelland Jr.,claims no further appropriation is needed to spend the federal money.

“Respondent has set up a fake argument just in order to tear it down. Petitioners are not asking this Court to direct the Respondent how to manage the construction of the high speed rail in Florida,” he wrote in a reply you can read here.

“Instead, the Petitioners are simply asking this Court to direct the Respondent that he does not have the jurisdiction or authority as granted by the laws of this State (which he is obligated to faithfully execute) to take the action he has taken in rejecting a specific appropriation of $130.8 million; federal grants amounting to $2.4 billion subject to statutory authority; dedicated funding pursuant to the Florida Rail Act of $60 million per year; and thus the entire high speed rail project.

“So it is clear, the Petitioners are not asking this Court to direct the Respondent how to manage those matters over which he has the authority, as permitted and limited by statutes or by the Constitution.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2011/03/altmanjoyner-lawyer-scott-amazingly-claims-he-is-not-a-state-official.html

[thelakelander]

GOOD! Because absolutely none of that money can go for anything BUT HSR, but accepting the money when we have such a bad project is equally wrong. Either way it's a bad deal, but I come down on the side of the railroad industry that says this thing is such a "dog" that it is going to wipe out all prospects of HSR being built again, or expanded in our lifetimes... In that case, better to sit out Scott and try for something a bit more logical later.

Not really.  The huge difference is that accepting the money only means moving forward with the bidding process.  If the private sector doesn't assume the finanical obligations associated with it, it doesn't happen.  This also allows for the private sector to suggest potential modifications that could lead to a more viable project. This option is called letting the process systematically play itself out with facts instead of fears and opinions.

Maybe not, but SOMEBODY will be when the trains stop rolling, and CSX tenders a bid to pick up the route as a freight mainline for pennies on the dollar. Who pays when the federal government screws the pooch?

Allow hybrid commuter/intercity rail on the infrastructure and it will be just fine.

This guy has turned Tallahassee into a circus.

Sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the clowns.

OCKLAWAHA

The circus has gone on continuously since I arrived in Jax eight years ago.  At some point, the show must end.  Now is as good a time as any.

[tufsu1]

Stephen...I agree with your entire post...with the small exception of the following

After all, Jacksonville isnt a part of the Florida High Speed Rail project.  There are no plans, for it to be joined to the network, not even in the medium term.

to be accurate, the Florida Rail Commission (at its meeting in Jax. last month) passed a resolution adding Orlando-Jacksonville to the official route map as Phase 3

[thelakelander]

Ock, we need all the money we can get, even if we get creative and take advantages of innovative funding mechanisms. the delay won't be CSX.  The delay will come in the form of no state and less federal financial assistance in local projects that we can't afford to do on our own (ex. dredging the river, commuter rail, etc.).  For example, our commuter rail plans are dependent on getting 50% federal and 25% state dollars.  The mobility plan will help provide the local 25% of capital costs.  Take the state and federal dollars out of it and we'll need to find a new way to access the lost 75% in funding.  In that scenario, delay is inevitable.  

The federal DOT will not punish Florida localities for Scott's actions, but as long as Scott is in Tally, no amount of Federal money is going to get sent through FDOT for local transit projects. But that's WITH or WITHOUT HSR, Scott doesn't believe in transit of any kind.

We have to compete for limited federal dollars with other states and cities across the country.  They aren't going overfund a local project just because we have Rick Scott in Tallahassee.  We'll be sitting on the sidelines trying to figure out how to fill in the funding gap.  Luckily, the way things are going, he may not make it through the end of his first term.

If the HSR is approved, it will do NOTHING to get Scott off the pot and send money for things like Streetcar or BRT.  If the HSR is not approved, same old shit - different day, nothing get's scott off the pot for any reason there either.

If approved and developed by the private sector, Florida will finally get a major rail project off the ground without the state being responsible for constructing, operating or maintaining it.  Once Scott leaves Tally in 2014 (HSR won't open until 2015), we will be able to leverage the fact that its there, as a means to gain additional federal dollars for local and intercity rail projects that will be needed to establish a statewide network.

In other words, what Scott does or doesn't do with HSR is more a snapshot of his conservative think, then it is a plus or minus for local projects. Frankly, the guy hates rail and transit in general, Florida HSR and all the money in Washington isn't going to change that. [/b]
OCKLAWAHA

Scott will only be in office until 2014.  However, he can do a lot of damage in the next four years.  If people sit back and let him have his way without fighting for what they believe in, we'll all have to live with the long term consequences.

[Ocklawaha]

Its insane to enable this guy.  If he gets traction on a mediocre plan (and lets be honest, the problem with central florida's HSR is that the project is mediocre.  It won't be a boondoggle because it services one of Florida's main industries, but it won't really build a sustainable commuter style train service either.  The tracks are really just an upgrade and the train won't really reach high speed status.) then he will use that traction to be emboldened in further anti rail steps but next time it will be a really good plan.

Florida's main industry? But they're claiming it serves Orlando and Tampa travelers, and that it will remove a million cars from I-4 for that purpose... Unless they are quoting numbers which they suddenly pull from 32 Million non existent passengers arriving at OIA. This thing, as-is, is an industry killer.

So what if Central Florida's HSR isnt really what its cracked up to be.

America and the World are watching, THAT'S why it's so damn critical to get this right.

It is vexing for a high speed rail purist to pretend that the Florida HSR project is anything more than an expensive corridor improvement, real estate sprawl tool, and keynesian stimulus to the central florida economy.

Actually not so much Keynesian as it is the old failed central planning of a good Marxian or Stalinist policy.

But it will not be a boondoggle, it will be used, and it reflects the wishes of those cities which have worked so hard for it.

Considering it is being proposed and (will be) built based on insanely misleading, false and otherwise disingenuous statements, if it fails, (and AS-IS it will) it will be labeled as 1,000 times worse then the Skyway.
Statements like "50 million visitors a year to Central Florida, and if only 5% ride FROM THE ORLANDO AIRPORT, it will take 1.5 million cars off of I-4..."

My Problem with this:

50 million visitors DON'T GO ANYWHERE FROM ORLANDO, more like 18 Million arrivals a year, but they take a 50 million total visitor statement, then magically apply all of them to OIA, then swing back to say look at all the cars we removed! After a "SAY WHAT DADDY?" moment, it gets my SOUTHRON up making me want to go bear hunting with a switch!

It is manifestly evident that the proof that HSR investment is greatly to be desired will not be the tampa to orlando connection, but rather the excellent northeastern and Californian systems.  It is therefore an grand overstatement to think that any possible stagnation of orlando/tampa HSR will 'poison the groundwater' for High Speed Rail in general...

Since this is the first out of the gate, when it opens and the initial bang simmers down to a whimper with few riders, there won't be another project - ANYWHERE in the USA, all one has to do is read the industry magazines. From "Railway Age," in the United States, "El Reportero Ferroviario" in Colombia, "Shinkansen NEWS" in Japan, Eurail Press, in the EU, to Railways Africa, they are all warning us not to build a loser, and they all think Florida's project could well fall into that category.

Amtrak, and therefore High Speed Rail---and indeed most of passenger rail---is a federal project at its very core.

Sadly it HAS come to this but only in the last 50 years... There is still a fantastic concept being floated in California to sweeten the tax credit pot for passenger rail to the point where Amtrak, Commuter Rail, and other rail could and would all go back private.

Scott blocking rail on principle is a far greater problem for us here in Jacksonville than the building of a mediocre system being built in mediocre central florida.

But approved or denied, this project will have no effect on Scott's handing us a check for transit... Because whatever his principal or lack thereof, he isn't going to change his tune, not for us, not for streetcars, not for commuter rail, not for Orlando, not for ANY transit project. This is why I could NEVER vote for the guy, he is ANTI-TRANSIT and ANTI-RAIL.

The boondoggle is within the documentation on the HSR applications, item after item that are patently false, such as "freight will offset the passenger revenue shortfalls," or "XXXXXXX cars on I-4 daily and HSR will relieve XXXX of them making expansion of I-4 unnecessary" However, the whole line is designed only to serve people arriving and departing from an AIRPORT, and will have no effect whatsoever on I-4!" That's the boondoggle, the whole thing is smoke and mirrors.

In fact I have undertaken a "Night Air Restricted Pneumonia Choked Coffin Varnish Swilling Project" to copy the entire damn application and pull out all of the false and misleading statements... By the time I'm done this will all be history and they'll probably be building the riderless express, it should make for an interesting read.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Stephen...I agree with your entire post...with the small exception of the following

After all, Jacksonville isnt a part of the Florida High Speed Rail project.  There are no plans, for it to be joined to the network, not even in the medium term.

to be accurate, the Florida Rail Commission (at its meeting in Jax. last month) passed a resolution adding Orlando-Jacksonville to the official route map as Phase 3

Stephen, to be even more accurate, they are going to claim the FEC RY project as HIGH SPEED RAIL to Jacksonville (90 mph - if it ever gets done) and the Commission has no more intent to spend more money to send a line to Jacksonville then that - EVER! More smoke and mirrors and BULL SHIT... If you consider a regular Amtrak train running fast south of TITUSVILLE, you've seen Jacksonville High Speed Rail as far as Florida is concerned, but if you think in terms of bullet trains to Orlando and Miami... It ain't going to happen. If TU believes it, it's only wishful thinking, or he's completely deluded.

OCKLAWAHA