Outer Beltway Plan Up In Smoke!

[jcjohnpaint]

Well his approval rating are down so much ...that most of the people that voted for him don't like his policies now.  Come on people it isn't like he lied.  He told us how he was going to $%$^ this state up the butt.  And come on we all know he was a simpleton crook!

[Timkin]

I didn't know... and I didn't vote for the slimeball

[Ocklawaha]

HIGHWAY COST

Really guys and gals? This is REALLY hard to figure out? How about this:

FREEWAY OR TURNPIKE = About $19 Million per-LANE MILE or 1 lane - 1 mile. (Tampa Crosstown costs) $19 million per lane mile x 13 lanes = $247 Million per mile of FREEway. http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4555

LIGHT RAIL = $35 Million per-TWO track installation. http://urban.csuohio.edu/capstone08/scenario_three/Scenario%203-Composite-Final.pdf

RAPID STREETCAR = Generally a streetcar system with some light rail attributes such as median or side of the road private right-of-way, and stations spaced farther apart. would cost considerably less then LIGHT RAIL.

So if the object is to get from Point A to Point B, Point C has no place in the discussion. I color coded a map laying out the options readily available to us today. Commuter Rail, Light Rail or Streetcar is simply a highway that never needs to be widened. Bus Rapid Transit is a standard or slightly enhanced transit bus running on exclusive lanes.

So in this excercise the RED lines represent the FREEWAYS or TURNPIKES as planned/or existing.
The Yellow lines represent the Bus Rapid Transit already proposed by JTA.
The Teal, Blue, Rose and Green lines represent our opportunity for Commuter Rail on existing track (with the exception of a 3 mile stretch of the Rose line that would need to be reconstructed on city owned right-of-way.

FINALLY THAT PURPLE LINE (gee wonder why THAT color?) This line represents RAPID STREETCAR - A FORM OF LIGHT RAIL using streetcar vehicles entrain, and light rail style track. What I've done is simply extended the route of the already proposed JTA STREETCAR from Park and King, west on King to Post to Normandy to Lennox to Old Middleburg to Ricker Road... WIDE OPEN BOYS AND GIRLS. check the illustration on how it could be done, shall we reinvent the wheel? Streetcar line capacity would be about 2.5 times the FREEway, but it would NOT take any cars off the road - THAT my friends is a choice you'd have to make. 

HOUSTON SE LRT CORRIDOR

OCKLAWAHA

[Gators312]

Ock,

That green line touches me in a special place.  Don't worry though; I don't mean "that" place.  I mean a utilitarian place in my soul.  If we could start there, I would be ecstatic.

My 18 mpg would sit in the driveway endlessly.  I could visit family, friends, work, shopping, entertainment on that green line alone.   I could walk to a station without a doubt. 

Oh, light commuter rail you seductive temptress.....

[jandar]

Ock,

Where are the people going to drive from in Clay County to get to the Commuter Rail or Rapid Street Car?

You cannot just magically make stations appear overnight, ending the need for roads immediately. You will need to plan to handle current needs and growth to get to that spot.

I see a major folly in your plans with the street car. Looks good on a map, but not so good in reality. Going down Firestone and Rampart to Argyle might work, but there is not a lot of right of way there to build it. Its a two lane rd, and you would have to buy a ton of land to expand the rd to handle the street car in the middle.
You would also need to fight Argyle Homeowners Association. They block anything connecting Argyle to Wells Rd. Have done so for years.
Then you would have to fight Orange Park Country Club. Many of those members helped fund the campaigns for many of the Clay County Commissioners.
Then you plan on shoving it right down the middle of RidgeCrest, Fox Chase and other neighborhoods. That wouldn't fly either to those homeowners.

You have to stay the blanding, US 17 or Branan-Chafee corridors to avoid bulldozing neighborhoods. You complain about I-95 tearing down homes with the overland bridge, but this would tear up more homes.

[thelakelander]

I'm sure my opinion on the matter will bring great opposition for Clay County residents but personal responsibility needs to play a role at some point because the taxpayer doesn't have to funds to continue to subsidize this horrible growth pattern we've developed.  If you move near an airport runway, you should expect jet noise.  If you move next to a railroad, expect train noise.  If you move to a location that requires you to drive down Blanding, expect traffic.  Its been that way for decades now and its not going to change if the sprawly linear corridor development pattern doesn't (Outer Beltway in place or not).  

Now this isn't to say alternative paths should not be developed.  However, I am saying that they should be designed in a manner that doesn't cause burden on everyone else by putting an additional strain on public financial resources.  For the Outer Beltway, this could mean a toll road that isn't limited express, like a few they have around Disney.  Or it could mean, having to make some tough decisions down there and plowing through some golf courses, wetlands and subdivisions to carve out a more effective semi-gridded network.  Or doing nothing at all and living with complete gridlock.  In all three cases, land use will need to change to encourage more mixed use and dense infill development to take existing and future vehicle trips off the streets.

[Ocklawaha]

RICKER ROAD


LENOX

FOLSOM, CA

Nobody is saying this is where the light rail or rapid streetcar would be, but it would certainly be worth a look as for the most part it would be all side of the road or median running. There is very little difference between the Folsom Photo, and the two along the Jax Westside.  You sound like you think the counties would be building the Santa Fe through the neighborhood... NO WAY, this is urban rail and is as quiet as the Skyway, faster, and cleaner then our bus fleet.  As Lake has said, Clay and West Duval residents either need to face their demons or learn to live with them, mass transit of any kind is the least expensive way to give every one of you a choice. In this case a much more environmentally friendly and livable choice.

http://www.youtube.com/v/_RdsQyrSgvw?fs=1&hl=en_US
In the long run it's going to either be our way or...

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/ria/ShizVidz-2008120101.swf?s=ZT0xJmk9NDU4MjQ2ODIzJms9dEpSZUQmYT03MDg2NjQzX1l6UEFMJnU9bWV0cm9hY2tzb252aWxsZQ==
TRAILWAYS...

OCKLAWAHA

[north miami]

I'm surprised no one has touched on the new County Manager being the former head of the FDOT Stephanie Kopelousos.  Her family is well connected into the fabric of the Clay Good Ol' Boy network and the boosters.


For years it was sold to Clay County residents as a cure to Blanding & the Buckman, now it's being sold as an economic stimulator....Brilliant!  

Good call Gators- a bunch easily flies over the head of the public and many narratives not dared recited even when in the know.
Kopelousos well embedded in Brannon Chaffe.I also recall a group of women all messing about and a particular interchange emerging at about the north half of Section 18,T4S. Follow Clay county official record book page 270-214 to present.

quote fixed-Ock

[jandar]

And what I am saying is the rich old codgers in Clay living in the back of Orange Park Country Club will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from touching their neighborhood. (Would Deerwood allow a commuter train through their neighborhood? Or Sawgrass?) OPCC is a closed neighborhood with security guards.

You simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

To make commuter/light/anything rail, you need to follow the Blanding/US 17 corridors.

I was born and raised on the westside, so yes I do still have a ton of ties to Jacksonville, not just work related. The westside and Clay County have been nothing but afterthought after afterthought to regional planning. Let's tear down a theater and build strip mall on Blanding @ Argyle. And while we are at it, let's add a new entrance for Starbucks. Surely those driving on Blanding won't mind the extra stop as they need their coffee to go sit in bumper to bumper traffic.

I'm seeing nothing but moaning and groaning over Collins Rd interchange as well. Hell the area doesn't need that, let's add more cars to Blanding, it can handle it.

[north miami]

We are up to seven pages of speculation here........a collective fart in a whirlwind.

Refer to the Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan for definitive insights,future roadways.

Including a Little Black Creek wetland belt crossing-after all, Brannon Chaffee alignment to the west of Orange Park is there because that is the first bit of dry ground for a ways from Blanding Blvd.... the significant wetland belt complex is a major NE Florida water recharge region,posing many regulatory,monetary and political challenges as if a giant Tic Tack Toe game.All to be 'mitigated' and 'growth managed'- casting Clay's Conservative Green and Better image for the crock that it is.

Key function of these future roadways maps is continued promotion of the alleviation image's proven sales tool employed in inducing new residents....."Hey,we promise Clay county soon won't affect you like this......cars jammin',scammin'".

Future rail ROW accommodation a central BC selling point-I recall the ROW aligned with the main BC roadway-don't recall East/West accommodation.

[thelakelander]

You simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

I'm very familiar with the area.  I've also not suggested adding any type of rail in Clay, other than commuter rail down the CSX A line.  What I have stated is that the rest of the taxpayers should not be on the hook for continued poor planning in Clay County and that some tough decisions will need to be made in the middle of sprawlsville.  Those decisions should include:

1. Accepting personal responsibility for moving into/creating gridlock and living with it (or move to a better planned environment).

2. Revise land use regulations to allow for denser, mixed use infill and redevelopment to take place, which over the long run, will reduce the need for residents to get in the car for many trips that should be made on foot or alternative forms of mobility.

3. Pay to play.  If the goal is to keep the unsustainable development pattern on track, then residents should be forced to pay for their fair share instead of having the rest of the community subsidize this pattern of growth.  This essentially means FDOT should develop Chaffee as a toll road, right from the start.  This will at least lower the subsidy.

4. Clay should consider a mobility plan.  In this scenario, at least new development would be forced to pay its fair share for the financial strain it puts on the surrounding infrastructure and neighborhoods.

As for the Duval section, I find this whole thing quite rediculous.  We're basically paying for infrastructure and supporting concepts that drive development and life right out of our own county.

[wsansewjs]

You simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

I'm very familiar with the area.  I've also not suggested adding any type of rail in Clay, other than commuter rail down the CSX A line.  What I have stated is that the rest of the taxpayers should not be on the hook for continued poor planning in Clay County and that some tough decisions will need to be made in the middle of sprawlsville.  Those decisions should include:

1. Accepting personal responsibility for moving into/creating gridlock and living with it (or move to a better planned environment).

2. Revise land use regulations to allow for denser, mixed use infill and redevelopment to take place, which over the long run, will reduce the need for residents to get in the car for many trips that should be made on foot or alternative forms of mobility.

3. Pay to play.  If the goal is to keep the unsustainable development pattern on track, then residents should be forced to pay for their fair share instead of having the rest of the community subsidize this pattern of growth.  This essentially means FDOT should develop Chaffee as a toll road, right from the start.  This will at least lower the subsidy.

4. Clay should consider a mobility plan.  In this scenario, at least new development would be forced to pay its fair share for the financial strain it puts on the surrounding infrastructure and neighborhoods.

As for the Duval section, I find this whole thing quite rediculous.  We're basically paying for infrastructure and supporting concepts that drive development and life right out of our own county.

WOW THIS IS YOUR 12,000th Post. I totally agree and find it ridiculous that Duval has to fan out the money to other counties for some personal financial gains by private companies and politicians.

-Josh

[Ocklawaha]

And what I am saying is the rich old codgers in Clay living in the back of Orange Park Country Club will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from touching their neighborhood. (Would Deerwood allow a commuter train through their neighborhood? Or Sawgrass?) OPCC is a closed neighborhood with security guards.

Would they bend together to stop a city bus from passing in front? Streetcar is a similar vehicle only quieter.

HILLS? Don't sweat the small stuff...

You simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

Nobody said this would be an "easy" project for any team, but the clock is ticking on Orange Park/Middleburg where we either stop development (and thus job creation) or we give up the asphalt. Sure you CAN build streetcar in that type of neighborhood, streetcars typically handle 5-6% grades with ease, and some handle 12%. Where you encounter an area without right of way space for private running, you simply go down the street like any city bus would. Lastly Streetcar and/or Light Rail, IS NOT COMMUTER RAIL.

To make commuter/light/anything rail, you need to follow the Blanding/US 17 corridors.

No you don't, Light Rail/Streetcar can go ANYWHERE a bus can go, with the addition of elevated, subway, or railroad track. Why would anyone want to tie such a great vehicle down with gridlock like Blanding or Roosevelt.

I was born and raised on the westside, so yes I do still have a ton of ties to Jacksonville, not just work related. The westside and Clay County have been nothing but afterthought after afterthought to regional planning. Let's tear down a theater and build strip mall on Blanding @ Argyle. And while we are at it, let's add a new entrance for Starbucks. Surely those driving on Blanding won't mind the extra stop as they need their coffee to go sit in bumper to bumper traffic.

I was in the Westside before I could walk, and likewise grew up there. The reasons for the traffic cluster F@#k is the Ortega River, Cedar River and Fishing Creek, there is very limited space to create any more corridors north from Orange Park. The best solution is no more pavement and the addition of commuter rail and streetcar.

I'm seeing nothing but moaning and groaning over Collins Rd interchange as well. Hell the area doesn't need that, let's add more cars to Blanding, it can handle it.

The best and by far the least expensive solution is no more pavement, and the addition of commuter rail and streetcar.


OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

We are up to seven pages of speculation here........a collective fart in a whirlwind.

Refer to the Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan for definitive insights,future roadways.

I don't agree north miami! I stated from the start this was an example of how this might be done without adding asphalt. Immediately we got the response that was more typical of the 101 ways rail won't work in Florida... So Lake and I are merely using this hypothetical street railway as a springboard to educate our city to something most of them have only seen in the movies.

In that respect, it's anything BUT a fart in a whirlwind, as years of NOT doing this have resulted in the policy's of one RICK SCOTT and Company.

OCKLAWAHA

[north miami]

I totally agree and find it ridiculous that Duval has to fan out the money to other counties for some personal financial gains by private companies and politicians.



The Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce core leadership includes the likes of Jack Myers;Reinhold Corporation,profiled in Florida Trend magazine as "one to watch" re central Clay County land holding development efforts.Reinhold has been a key Beltway 'driver',immersed in Brannon Chaffee and Lake Asbury Sector Plan initiatives.

JEA has provided key infrastructure to outlying counties,crucial implementation to many controversial developments.This aspect hardly recognized.

Jacksonville was the willing Chump in the "Jacksonville Millionth Mania" celebration hosted by Barnett bank and the City of Jacksonville Special Events office-fire works down town!!....celebrating "Jacksonville's" Millionth Resident- a total fudge of the numbers-only by including surrounding county population could "Jacksonville" muster the coveted bench mark.
Carl Hiaasen revealed the whole sordid matter for what it was in a hard hitting editorial that has been included in the hard cover edition of the compilation of his finest editorials;"Kick Ass".