Current Courthouse

[ChriswUfGator]

wow...I didn't know that Michael Munz was SMG

O.K. there G.I. Joe! So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. (You been hiding under a rock or something?)

well since the picture you showed has him listed as the SMG spokesman and there's a certain company logo behind him, I'm willing to bet he's a contract employee (i.e., consultant) and works for Dalton.

but, let's play this out....didn't you say SMG's profits all go to their corporate HQ....so where does Munz get his money from....and where do you think he spends it?

I don't really need to explain what a lobbyist is to you, do I?

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris, I think your concerns about a convention center have merit and appear to be well researched.

Give me a break.  He has produce NO FACTS WHATSOEVER to bolster his cynical rantings.

Charlotte, Indianapolis, Baltimore and yes, San Diego (in 1987 !!) have all used convention centers to bolster their core and their profile as cities.  

Exactly what did San Diego have going for it in 1983 that Jax doesn't or COULDN'T in 2011?

Savannah built one when it ALREADY had millions of tourists and a very successful Downtown.  I guess they all just wasted there money.

What city of any size, besides JAX, has all but ignored this element for economic development?

San Diego voters approved a measure to fund construction of a new convention center in 1983 on land owned by the Port of San Diego. Construction of the original building began in March 1987 and was completed in November 1989. An expansion which doubled the gross square footage of the facility was completed in September 2001. In September 2008 the center took steps to acquire adjacent property for an additional expansion.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Convention_Center

The Gaslamp Quarter is a 16½ block historical neighborhood in downtown San Diego, California. The area is listed as a historic district on the National Register of Historic Places as Gaslamp Quarter Historic District. Its main period of development began in 1867, when Alonzo Horton bought the land in hopes of creating a new city center closer to the bay, and chose 5th Avenue as its main street. After a period of urban decay, the neighborhood underwent urban renewal in the 1980s and 1990s, and is today an energetic business and entertainment district.

Panoramic view of the Gaslamp Quarter from the San Diego Convention Center, with the Hilton Gaslamp Quarter in the center and Petco Park and the Metropolis at the Omni Hotel to the far right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslamp_Quarter,_San_Diego

You seriously have no clue what you're talking about.

San Diego's center was approved in 1983, but wasn't actually built and opened until 1989, originally a pretty modest facility. It became the beast it is now following a 2001 expansion. The thing you're missing (at this point I think you're missing it intentionally since I've said this all before) is that San Diego's convention success traces back to hosting Comicon from 1970 onwards, when they didn't even have the convention center yet. And the only reason San Diego landed that event initially is because the founder had moved there from Detroit. Their convention center was actually built in large part TO HOST THAT PRE-EXISTING EVENT. It remains their single largest event to this day, and has more to do with the center's success than anything the city has done.

I don't care how many $400mm buildings we build, that success is not replicable in Jacksonville.

And regarding facts, my entire argument is based on fact, which you'd already know if you'd spent 12 seconds actually researching any of this instead of making general sniping statements and demonstrating your proficiency at posting generic wikipedia links.

[tufsu1]

so wait, are you saying Jax. could be a convention city again?  It would seem that Chris differs greatly with opinion.

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris, I think your concerns about a convention center have merit and appear to be well researched.

But I don't think you strengthen that position with the attacks against Gate, Haskell, Mark Rimmer and Michael Munz.

My apologies for getting completely off the topic, but I went to dalton's website to learn more about them.  Check out the video clip about 'immerse yourself here'.  It's a new promotional video for visitjacksonville.com.

http://www.daltonagency.com/

Well Doug, the truth sometimes hurts. I'm not sure why stating fact automatically gets deemed a personal attack just because it happens to be negative. Why can't it just be the truth? FWIW COJ even knows what's up with this one, it's not even fooling the city administration. Unfortunately what remains to be seen is the next mayor's position in this.

[ChriswUfGator]

so wait, are you saying Jax. could be a convention city again?  It would seem that Chris differs greatly with opinion.

What he actually said was to compliment the new guy's approach of actually trying to bring in events before simply building a giant $400mm convention center and expecting people to show up and start beating down your door to fill it the second it opens. Which never happens. If you actually read his comments, it's clear that both Stephen and the Visit Jacksonville director both feel a new convention center would be a waste when we have nothing to fill it with. His approach is the correct one, although I know this is a novel concept for you planning types, of wanting to focus his efforts on developing the business instead of just dropping hundreds of millions of dollars on another empty building and crossing our fingers that people will show up when it's built. They won't. Frankly that's smart, and it's refreshing to hear the new guy's approach.  

Regarding my take on this, I wish the guy the best of luck and think he has the right approach.

[ChriswUfGator]

However, the new guy realizes that there is infrastructure that is necessary to support and build that industry here.  Hes actually a refreshing, good guy.

Yeah, if you look at this business and the size of most events these facilities host, the vast majority of them are well under the size limit that our current convention center can support. The problem here isn't the building. That's not why nobody comes here, and building a new building won't do anything to address it. The problem isn't the building!

[ChriswUfGator]

I cant speak for Dan on the Convention Center.  His board is for building a new building, and he works for that board, and he did not indicate that he was against building one.

And regarding that, that's disappointing, but I suppose that's to be expected considering the group involved. Unfortunately, the truth is that if we want to build a new one then at least locate it out at the town center where it has a hope of success, instead of downtown. Nobody wants to hold a convention where there is absolutely nothing to do. The reason Orlando's convention center worked out is because they built it over off of I-Drive where all the stuff is. Had they built it in their (at that time) dead downtown, it would have failed. Again this really isn't complicated, nobody is going to hold a convention in a dead area with nothing to do.

There is zero point in wasting a bunch of money until that is resolved.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Stephen, if you have the time to indulge me, I'd be very curious to know more detail of the Clarkson vs. Diamond battle.  I know that in Old Hickory's Town, a 1982 book with a 1985 postscript, there is a reference to a planned "Clarkson office and hotel complex" near the convention center, and that Clarkson was pushing for the convention center Marriott in the mid-to-late 90s that was passed over for the then-Adam's Mark.  But I don't know any of the details of the personal battle that caused these projects to evaporate.

[tufsu1]

Yeah, if you look at this business and the size of most events these facilities host, the vast majority of them are well under the size limit that our current convention center can support. The problem here isn't the building. That's not why nobody comes here, and building a new building won't do anything to address it. The problem isn't the building!

correct....if the problem was the building, I would say just grow the market and expand there (which at one time I thought was the best option)....but no, the problem is the location!

and btw....I'm sick of hearing you whine about there being nothing to do in downtown...yesterday I was with 25 university students from New York City....they went to our library to see the new Holocaust exhibit and then went down to the Landing and Riverwalk....even took some pics at the Jackson staute on the roundabout...they all remarked on how beautiful the city was....and one even told me how nice the park outside the library (Hemming Plaza) was!

[futurejax]

Yeah, if you look at this business and the size of most events these facilities host, the vast majority of them are well under the size limit that our current convention center can support. The problem here isn't the building. That's not why nobody comes here, and building a new building won't do anything to address it. The problem isn't the building!

correct....if the problem was the building, I would say just grow the market and expand there (which at one time I thought was the best option)....but no, the problem is the location!

and btw....I'm sick of hearing you whine about there being nothing to do in downtown...yesterday I was with 25 university students from New York City....they went to our library to see the new Holocaust exhibit and then went down to the Landing and Riverwalk....even took some pics at the Jackson staute on the roundabout...they all remarked on how beautiful the city was....and one even told me how nice the park outside the library (Hemming Plaza) was!

Yeah, there are pieces down there.  Like I have refrained now a couple times in this thread I don't understand why a planner would not want to build upon those pieces, (i.e. the landing moving east towards the existing core strip) I would want more of what's started there, good eats and good beer/wine good time establishments.  You could argue that where the current courthouse/annex and gigantic parking lot are located are the most potentially prime pieces of real estate in the city.  Make that area a legit destination for walking around, exploring, and getting good food and having a good time creating demand from visitors but most importantly existing jax residents.  Then put your convention center somewhere down the street, (within the greater shipyards area).  Later work on getting the ridiculous police and detention center the hell out of there too.

[ChriswUfGator]

Yeah, if you look at this business and the size of most events these facilities host, the vast majority of them are well under the size limit that our current convention center can support. The problem here isn't the building. That's not why nobody comes here, and building a new building won't do anything to address it. The problem isn't the building!

correct....if the problem was the building, I would say just grow the market and expand there (which at one time I thought was the best option)....but no, the problem is the location!

and btw....I'm sick of hearing you whine about there being nothing to do in downtown...yesterday I was with 25 university students from New York City....they went to our library to see the new Holocaust exhibit and then went down to the Landing and Riverwalk....even took some pics at the Jackson staute on the roundabout...they all remarked on how beautiful the city was....and one even told me how nice the park outside the library (Hemming Plaza) was!

Yeah, there are pieces down there.  Like I have refrained now a couple times in this thread I don't understand why a planner would not want to build upon those pieces, (i.e. the landing moving east towards the existing core strip) I would want more of what's started there, good eats and good beer/wine good time establishments.  You could argue that where the current courthouse/annex and gigantic parking lot are located are the most potentially prime pieces of real estate in the city.  Make that area a legit destination for walking around, exploring, and getting good food and having a good time creating demand from visitors but most importantly existing jax residents.  Then put your convention center somewhere down the street, (within the greater shipyards area).  Later work on getting the ridiculous police and detention center the hell out of there too.

I agree. I think the site should be developed privately. Our city government has not once managed to get involved in private business without screwing it up and leaving us worse off than we were originally, and this will be no different. Just put it up for sale at a good price and let natural, organic, private market forces determine what to do with it. The only restriction needs to be that it can't be used for a parking lot.

[futurejax]

Yeah, if you look at this business and the size of most events these facilities host, the vast majority of them are well under the size limit that our current convention center can support. The problem here isn't the building. That's not why nobody comes here, and building a new building won't do anything to address it. The problem isn't the building!

correct....if the problem was the building, I would say just grow the market and expand there (which at one time I thought was the best option)....but no, the problem is the location!

and btw....I'm sick of hearing you whine about there being nothing to do in downtown...yesterday I was with 25 university students from New York City....they went to our library to see the new Holocaust exhibit and then went down to the Landing and Riverwalk....even took some pics at the Jackson staute on the roundabout...they all remarked on how beautiful the city was....and one even told me how nice the park outside the library (Hemming Plaza) was!

Yeah, there are pieces down there.  Like I have refrained now a couple times in this thread I don't understand why a planner would not want to build upon those pieces, (i.e. the landing moving east towards the existing core strip) I would want more of what's started there, good eats and good beer/wine good time establishments.  You could argue that where the current courthouse/annex and gigantic parking lot are located are the most potentially prime pieces of real estate in the city.  Make that area a legit destination for walking around, exploring, and getting good food and having a good time creating demand from visitors but most importantly existing jax residents.  Then put your convention center somewhere down the street, (within the greater shipyards area).  Later work on getting the ridiculous police and detention center the hell out of there too.

I agree. I think the site should be developed privately. Our city government has not once managed to get involved in private business without screwing it up and leaving us worse off than we were originally, and this will be no different. Just put it up for sale at a good price and let natural, organic, private market forces determine what to do with it. The only restriction needs to be that it can't be used for a parking lot.

yep

[ChriswUfGator]

Yeah, if you look at this business and the size of most events these facilities host, the vast majority of them are well under the size limit that our current convention center can support. The problem here isn't the building. That's not why nobody comes here, and building a new building won't do anything to address it. The problem isn't the building!

correct....if the problem was the building, I would say just grow the market and expand there (which at one time I thought was the best option)....but no, the problem is the location!

and btw....I'm sick of hearing you whine about there being nothing to do in downtown...yesterday I was with 25 university students from New York City....they went to our library to see the new Holocaust exhibit and then went down to the Landing and Riverwalk....even took some pics at the Jackson staute on the roundabout...they all remarked on how beautiful the city was....and one even told me how nice the park outside the library (Hemming Plaza) was!

Lol, you have to know you've got a problem with that analysis, tufsu, since you're so assiduously avoiding coming anywhere near Stephen's attempts to set you up on this exact point. If you truly believe location is the problem, then answer his question. Where were conventions held before the construction of the Jacksonville Beach Convention Center and the original Memorial Coliseum in the 50s?

We were the top convention city in the southeast well before those structures were ever constructed to serve that market, so where were these conventions held? What area of town was the convention center located in the 1940s?

[fieldafm]

Stephen, if you have the time to indulge me, I'd be very curious to know more detail of the Clarkson vs. Diamond battle.  I know that in Old Hickory's Town, a 1982 book with a 1985 postscript, there is a reference to a planned "Clarkson office and hotel complex" near the convention center, and that Clarkson was pushing for the convention center Marriott in the mid-to-late 90s that was passed over for the then-Adam's Mark.  But I don't know any of the details of the personal battle that caused these projects to evaporate.

You could seriously write an entire book about Downtown reconstruction and the Convention Center battle in the late 70's/early 80's.  Godbold's support of Rouse and The Landing was partially motivated by an appeasement of screwing over the DT merchants/hotelliers of the time by chosing the Jax Terminal site.

Buy me a coup of soup at Chamblins and I'll spend an entire day at the DT library showing you all the literature of those years.  Lots of money was poured into DT at the time, and a power struggle naturally ensued.  People's fortunes 'grew'(not made) if that gives you an indication of who the winner was.

[tufsu1]

I do not know where the convention center was in 1960....nor for that matter do I really care....a lot has changed in 50 years and we need to be looking forward 50 more.

In the 1960s or 1970s, Philly built a convention center next to UPenn and the existing arena....then the Warriors moved to California, along came the Spectrum, and the Sixers/Flyers moved to the new arena.  

In 1994, the City (with significant cash from the state) built a new convention center downtown....the industry exploded, Philly got lots of new hotels and dining/entertainment establishments, and then the 2000 RNC convention.