Current Courthouse

[Keith-N-Jax]

Dynamite as soon as the last chair is removed!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChriswUfGator]

btw Chris...aren't you from Daytona....they recently expanded their center and have taken business from Jax....what do they have as a draw that we can't compete with?

http://www.volusia.org/oceancenter/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Center

Well, first not to be offensive, but Daytona has much better restaurants than JAX and, well, they have a beach. And the beach is exactly 1 block from the convention center. So is a water park, movie theatres, a mall, more than enough hotel space, attractions, a water park, the boardwalk and concessions, a million different bars and nightclubs, etc., etc. It's (again) not comparable to downtown Jacksonville at all. There is absolutely nothing to do here!

But aside from that, I was against the Ocean Center expansion and though it was a boondoggle, and indeed it has proven to be. And Daytona has a lot more more going for it than JAX does, and I still was against it, I still said it would lose money, and guess what...it is. The locals think it's a joke. Even given every success in the world, you'll never get your money out of it and it's still not the best potential use of funds. Kind of highlights the problem, actually.

[vicupstate]

Chris, NOTHING that the government does or builds MAKES money.  If it were profitable within itself, the private sector would provide it. 

As has been explained to you already, the 'profit' in conventions is across the entire private/public spectrum of the subject community.  The COLLECTIVE revenue exceeds the expense, but no ONE entity collects that revenue to itself, it is spread across many public and private pockets.

Coliseums don't make money either, should Jax have built one?  Or any other city for that matter?

As for San Diego, all of the cities around it like LA, SF, etc. ALL have their OWN convention centers, so that blows that theory. 

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris, NOTHING that the government does or builds MAKES money.  If it were profitable within itself, the private sector would provide it.  

As has been explained to you already, the 'profit' in conventions is across the entire private/public spectrum of the subject community.  The COLLECTIVE revenue exceeds the expense, but no ONE entity collects that revenue to itself, it is spread across many public and private pockets.

Coliseums don't make money either, should Jax have built one?  Or any other city for that matter?

As for San Diego, all of the cities around it like LA, SF, etc. ALL have their OWN convention centers, so that blows that theory.  

I'm not an idiot, Vic. What I'm saying is that, even after you fully account for the trickle-down effect in the most favorable possible fashion, this is still a money-loser. I'm not talking solely operating costs, I mean that when you account for every positive ancillary benefit this provides, we are still getting a negative return on the tax dollars invested. I've already covered this in my posts. So what, then, is the point of building this exactly?

And regarding San Diego, no it doesn't blow my theory, it proves it entirely. Every city tries to get involved in this asinine game, and they all mostly lose on it. The cities that lead the business will continue to lead the business, regardless of what other cities do, for reasons that are outside the control of the municipal governments drinking this "build it and they will come" koolaid. Including the cities surrounding San Diego, which no doubt factored that city's success into their own convention center plans, only to be consternated and out a significant amount of money when their convention center expansions failed to achieve a similar level of success. It's because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUILDING. That's been my point from the beginning. FWIW, San Diego is a success because its location originally attracted comicon, that's it. That can't be replicated with a $400mm building, period.

[dougskiles]

Have any of the mayoral candidates committed to a convention center in their first term?

Which would be the most likely to do so?

I waffle back and forth on the idea, myself.  And with the ever-increasing cost of the courthouse, I think it would be wise for us to take a breather before we commit to building another large public facility.

I would rather see the money spent on transit projects and neighborhood revitalization.  I would rather see the city commit to helping projects like the Trio get started.

The last convention hall that I visited was in the Gaylord Palms in Orlando.  In fact, every convention I have attended in Orlando was in a mega-hotel.  So, that leads me to ask the question, if we want 100,000 sf of convention space, could we provide incentives to a hotel instead of building it ourselves?

[stjr]

Would a retail developer, such as Regency, Sleiman or Sembler be willing to add some retail/entertainment space near a main entrance that forces all visitors to walk past their investment to enter?  Assuming its the current courthouse site is to become a convention center, why not build a cheap box in the center of the site and RFP edges, street fronts and air rights for mixed use development.  Is there any room for creative solutions with this issue?

Lake, not to drag through what we spent another thread already discussing, but I would be remiss if I didn't counter this comment with my concerns that the courthouse site may already be a tight fit for a worthwhile center without the additions you suggest above.  I am still willing to consider a "well connected" site in proximity to the arena, stadium, baseball and fair grounds,and Metro Park and Shipyards waterfronts.

As previously noted, this also shares parking facilities and provides complimentary meeting/exhibit/entertainment venues for convention planners that, combined, could provide some powerful selling points vs. competitors anywhere else.

For connections, I am thinking a street car line straight from the front door of the convention center down Bay Street through the innards of downtown.  If the Shipyards was made into a great public/entertainment/recreational space, you would have convention and downtown convention amenities tied to the river and fully connected to create the hub of activities needed to make some dreams a reality.  It seems so obvious to me, I wonder why it's not already in the planning stages. 

[tufsu1]

doug....one of the reasons for promoting a convention center on the courthouse lot is its direct connection to the Hyatt....which would allow us to build less space, as the hotel has meeting and exhibit space too.

[stjr]

The last convention hall that I visited was in the Gaylord Palms in Orlando.  In fact, every convention I have attended in Orlando was in a mega-hotel.  So, that leads me to ask the question, if we want 100,000 sf of convention space, could we provide incentives to a hotel instead of building it ourselves?

One of the largest convention facilities in Orlando is one built by Marriott World Center.  Most of the conventions there appear to be self contained on their resort property featuring over 3,000 rooms, golf course, spa, pools, restaurants, and time shares.  As you note, Doug, if we chose the site being pushed by many here, why don't we get Hyatt to participate in the project, maybe with a few other hotel partners.  Maybe one could tear down/convert the unfinished Berkman tower and connect via the Riverwalk.

[futurejax]

btw Chris...aren't you from Daytona....they recently expanded their center and have taken business from Jax....what do they have as a draw that we can't compete with?

http://www.volusia.org/oceancenter/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Center

Well, first not to be offensive, but Daytona has much better restaurants than JAX and, well, they have a beach. And the beach is exactly 1 block from the convention center. So is a water park, movie theatres, a mall, more than enough hotel space, attractions, a water park, the boardwalk and concessions, a million different bars and nightclubs, etc., etc. It's (again) not comparable to downtown Jacksonville at all. There is absolutely nothing to do here!

But aside from that, I was against the Ocean Center expansion and though it was a boondoggle, and indeed it has proven to be. And Daytona has a lot more more going for it than JAX does, and I still was against it, I still said it would lose money, and guess what...it is. The locals think it's a joke. Even given every success in the world, you'll never get your money out of it and it's still not the best potential use of funds. Kind of highlights the problem, actually.

While first I don't exactly think that's true I think you're simply referring to the existing north bank area.  This is sort of my entire point of starting this thread.  There are a few things going on right across the street.  Is it a lot?  No, but you have to start somewhere.  So then if say the current courthouse is leveled and is zoned for mixed use, why not then build upon what is across the street with more restaraunts and more bars/clubs/lounges.  Make this area the focus point for expanding the core into a legitimate destination for jax nightlife.  Give the northbank something to hang it's hat on outside of a few office buildings.  Give those souls working in those buildings a reason not to escape in their cars as soon as it's quitting time.  Perhaps, over time a snowball effect takes place.  People begin to want to stay and or go downtown AT NIGHT, on weekends.  Then maybe at some point, some people may actually want to live down there.  Again, you have to start somewhere.  I'm with you on the convention center thinking it's a net loser.  Better to have something there that can benefit the area all year by local businesses for local residents.  If the convention center is such a need on the northbank I'd rather it use some of the shipyards acreage, (though not near all of it).

[ChriswUfGator]

The last convention hall that I visited was in the Gaylord Palms in Orlando.  In fact, every convention I have attended in Orlando was in a mega-hotel.  So, that leads me to ask the question, if we want 100,000 sf of convention space, could we provide incentives to a hotel instead of building it ourselves?

One of the largest convention facilities in Orlando is one built by Marriott World Center.  Most of the conventions there appear to be self contained on their resort property featuring over 3,000 rooms, golf course, spa, pools, restaurants, and time shares.  As you note, Doug, if we chose the site being pushed by many here, why don't we get Hyatt to participate in the project, maybe with a few other hotel partners.  Maybe one could tear down/convert the unfinished Berkman tower and connect via the Riverwalk.

Not to sound like an ass, but the reason is because that doesn't 1: Sell enough Gate Precast which is 2: Installed by Haskell 3: To build the CC that will line Michael Munz / SMG's pockets and 4: Allow space for associated parking for which Rimmer can charge $40/day. Simply put, nobody is interested in having private business develop this, A: Because private companies know it will never generate a return so you'd never get one to do it, and B: Because this is really about a select few local individuals trying to line their pockets on a 1-time basis even when that will saddle the taxpayers with 3 decades worth of debt. That's the reality of how things operate locally.

[tufsu1]

wow...I didn't know that Michael Munz was SMG

[ChriswUfGator]

wow...I didn't know that Michael Munz was SMG

O.K. there G.I. Joe! So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. (You been hiding under a rock or something?)

[dougskiles]

Chris, I think your concerns about a convention center have merit and appear to be well researched.

But I don't think you strengthen that position with the attacks against Gate, Haskell, Mark Rimmer and Michael Munz.

My apologies for getting completely off the topic, but I went to dalton's website to learn more about them.  Check out the video clip about 'immerse yourself here'.  It's a new promotional video for visitjacksonville.com.

http://www.daltonagency.com/

[vicupstate]

Chris, I think your concerns about a convention center have merit and appear to be well researched.

Give me a break.  He has produce NO FACTS WHATSOEVER to bolster his cynical rantings.

Charlotte, Indianapolis, Baltimore and yes, San Diego (in 1987 !!) have all used convention centers to bolster their core and their profile as cities.  

Exactly what did San Diego have going for it in 1983 that Jax doesn't or COULDN'T in 2011?

Savannah built one when it ALREADY had millions of tourists and a very successful Downtown.  I guess they all just wasted there money.

What city of any size, besides JAX, has all but ignored this element for economic development?

San Diego voters approved a measure to fund construction of a new convention center in 1983 on land owned by the Port of San Diego. Construction of the original building began in March 1987 and was completed in November 1989. An expansion which doubled the gross square footage of the facility was completed in September 2001. In September 2008 the center took steps to acquire adjacent property for an additional expansion.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Convention_Center

The Gaslamp Quarter is a 16½ block historical neighborhood in downtown San Diego, California. The area is listed as a historic district on the National Register of Historic Places as Gaslamp Quarter Historic District. Its main period of development began in 1867, when Alonzo Horton bought the land in hopes of creating a new city center closer to the bay, and chose 5th Avenue as its main street. After a period of urban decay, the neighborhood underwent urban renewal in the 1980s and 1990s, and is today an energetic business and entertainment district.

Panoramic view of the Gaslamp Quarter from the San Diego Convention Center, with the Hilton Gaslamp Quarter in the center and Petco Park and the Metropolis at the Omni Hotel to the far right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslamp_Quarter,_San_Diego

[tufsu1]

wow...I didn't know that Michael Munz was SMG

O.K. there G.I. Joe! So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. (You been hiding under a rock or something?)

well since the picture you showed has him listed as the SMG spokesman and there's a certain company logo behind him, I'm willing to bet he's a contract employee (i.e., consultant) and works for Dalton.

but, let's play this out....didn't you say SMG's profits all go to their corporate HQ....so where does Munz get his money from....and where do you think he spends it?