PORT EXPANSION and 3 Missing projects...

[CS Foltz]

Ock .....I have to ask - Does Columbia subsidize their Mass Transit systems also? That have never come up the the discussions!

[tufsu1]

CS...even Europe subsidizes their transit systems....either directly or indirecly

For example, gas costs 2-3 times what it does here and that's all taxes...which does two things

1. discourages people from driving
2. provides funding for transit

[CS Foltz]

Thanks big guy........already know about that! Funding for trasit has to come from somewhere for sure! Europe is one thing and not sure nor have heard about South America!

[Ocklawaha]

Yup, and it's getting bigger as the young economies surge forward. Subsidy's are seen as providing safety in transporte as sin subsidy's the private companies or drivers race each other from stop to stop. There is no shortage of passengers or freight, but the economics are something like living in Tombstone circa 1882. The transporte unions are fighting for subsidy's to level the playing fields and tame the frontier.


Oh yeah CS, it's Col O mbia - Colombia, not Columbia (which is somewhere north of us) HEE HEE.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Thanks Ock............trying to stay focused and keep on eye on one five and one twelve is stretching my multitasking ability! I can see where there is some subsidy to most all mass transit systems but question why? If the initial cost is paid for by a private concern or consortium, initial system is lean, cost effective and efficient maybe you can explain why it must be subsidized? Everything I have been involved with made money and kept doors open, paid bills........I do not see why Mass Transit could not do the same thing! Biggest expense to start would be ROW, tracks, equipment and stations.......then cost connected with personnel, operators, maintenance and support personnel. Part of their salary could be stock to ensure success across the operating spectrum or points for the same benefit redeemed yearly after 5 years(vested)......couple of different scenarios that could do the same thing but bottom line rules all!

[Ocklawaha]

Well fed Motormen WILL pass inspection every time!

The Skyway is a great example CS, just because it's exaggerated. We have just under $200 million dollars, invested. 24 cars, a 600 volt dc electric system, an elevated track, stations, car barn, computer controls out the wazoo, parts facility, garage, techies, mechanics, porters, and we get 1,200 people a day, 313,000 annual passengers on the damn thing at .50 cents each or about $156,000 dollars. Even at low wages, that wouldn't even pay 5 employees their annual salary and benefits at maybe $20,000 a year each (add in benefits).

New buses for BRT? COUNT ON $600,000 to $1 Million (hybrid or PNG/LNG). Coaches for over-the-road commutes (such as JTA's 3 worn out MCI'S) a solid $1.3 Million each. Streetcars Modern Style - $1.5 Million min. and Heritage Streetcars $500,000 - $1 Million each, and full blown Interurban/LRT cars $2.5-3.5 Million each. Monorail cars? Holy Shit Batman! They are just now (thanks to Vegas, Indonesia, Japan, China, Dubai and Moscow) becoming available at something like LRT/Streetcar prices.

Salary's UNIONIZED. Count on Rail workers being on the + side of $50,000 a year (lowest rank) and many in the +$100,000 a year technical trades.

Now to cover a single run on 10 minute headways, we could be talking about a dozen vehicles and crews each. So when you see a URBAN transit system that is running a LRT with LONG BEACH on the front destination curtain
expect you are REALLY seeing 30+ cars scattered all up and down the line.

What's that fare? $1.00 REALLY? Yeah REALLY!


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Well..........I can see where the price is artificially suppressed to make it useable! As to a Union, I think I would be informing them ain't no way! Have written code of conduct and adhere everyone to it with no exceptions......Union is not needed! Automation would take place of crew's, plus with correct software, trains would be self maintaining to a degree and come time for real maintenance, car should be able to tell the human end where the problem is. Hub and spoke setup with electric power and each spoke has x number of cars....each one does not need to run the whole of the system length........just its spoke to its hub.....at least that's one scenario or instead of one set of tracks that stretch the entire length of system........break it down into several smaller chunks..........each chunk independent of each other but with transfer points to allow lateral or directional movement from chunk to chunk! Or you could go to a box pattern.............depending on the size of the box dictating how many trains move within the box..............I see a couple of ways to get something up and running right now!

[Ocklawaha]

Well..........I can see where the price is artificially suppressed to make it useable! As to a Union, I think I would be informing them ain't no way! Have written code of conduct and adhere everyone to it with no exceptions......Union is not needed!

If we're still talking costs and possibilities for Jax, then with no insult intended, I'll critique your ideas.

As for the Union, transportation workers are unionized almost universally. The union demands good conditions for the employees and this one industry, especially rail has managed to secure a professional salary and benefit package (even avoiding Social Security). Busting that union would be costly and Ed Ball is long dead. The plus side that has to be considered is the union asks for a contract to work, usually 5 years and once the details are worked out and the paper work inked, the employer and employee KNOW what is going out in labor.

Automation would take place of crew's, plus with correct software, trains would be self maintaining to a degree and come time for real maintenance, car should be able to tell the human end where the problem is.

The Skyway is automated and can be entrained so your cost benefit is already in practice. The automation costs are a huge chunk of the $185,000,000 Million we spent on the thing. The fact that 75% of transportation operating expense is eaten by labor seems to have completely missed those that now want us to tear down the Skyway. In short, while capital costs are about equal to Light Rail, the operating costs are much lower. Passengers per mile - per hour PPMPH ability is much more limited on the Skyway then on Streetcars entrained. That said, the least of our worries is overcrowding of transportation, something that will haunt us until we get it right, in fact, we should be so lucky.

Hub and spoke setup with electric power and each spoke has x number of cars....each one does not need to run the whole of the system length........just its spoke to its hub.....at least that's one scenario or instead of one set of tracks that stretch the entire length of system.......

Rail doesn't work well with a hub and spokes system. Even the great terminals of yesteryear were generally served by trains that came in from one direction and went out by another. In this respect Blaylock at JTA has it right, transit that transcends downtown is better transit. At the risk of over simplification, a series of giant rings for streetcars, a grid for buses, and a 5 pointed star for commuter rail, all tied to a X shaped Skyway, would indeed be very connected. Of course our city would have to discover the wonders of the "Free Transfer."

...break it down into several smaller chunks..........each chunk independent of each other but with transfer points to allow lateral or directional movement from chunk to chunk! Or you could go to a box pattern.............depending on the size of the box dictating how many trains move within the box..............I see a couple of ways to get something up and running right now!

The only thing preventing us from being up and running right away is the bone headed City that refuses to push the projects forward. Even that is unlikely with the completely flat lined brain function of our boy prince.

Want to really piss them off? Join with me on the FREE PUBLIC TRANSIT BANDWAGON, you owe it to yourselves to at least read their material. In light of Federal and Local funding for highways, I think they have a much more valid point of investment then Obama's recent deal where you, Lunican, Lake, Steve, and I, will pay for old weird Uncle Albert's Gall Stones.

http://www.webring.com/hub?ring=001bus  General Transit Information Access / Jax Transit is featured!

http://freepublictransit.org/  Free Public Transit Organization / Jax Transit is nearly top listed! (gee wonder why?)

http://www.busatx.org/farefreeproposal  Sample Free Public Transit Proposal


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ok........thats a new one for me.............leme do some reading and I'll get back to ya! Your right, by the way, if the Boy Blunder's brain was explosive, he would not have enought to blow his nose!

[CS Foltz]

Count me in Ock!

[Ocklawaha]

Ok........thats a new one for me.............leme do some reading and I'll get back to ya! Your right, by the way, if the Boy Blunder's brain was explosive, he would not have enought to blow his nose!

Man, what a beautiful thing to say! God I love this stuff. ROFLMFHO

BTW, if your onboard the Free Public Transit bandwagon, be ready to get grilled... I don't know how realistic the idea would be in Jacksonville, simply because of the parochial mindset of this city. Perhaps we could get a few free fare days to give this a real try, or perhaps a .25 cent flat fare.

OCKLAWAHA

[heights unknown]

In Tampa, are they going to replace the Sunshine Skyway Bridge when it too is too small for the newest Cruise Ships?

The cost to replace the Dames Point would be more than the benefit to come from ships. All land East of the Dames Point is in danger of Imminent Domain by the JPA to help grow the port.

Doesn't Genosee & Wyoming control the Tallyrand Rail system now? Why would we want to add a city funded rail system to a bloated utility like the JEA? Are you a closet big government guy?

St. Petersburg/Bradenton, not Tampa; Sunshine Skyway is primarily maintained by Pinellas and Manatee Counties; I believe the Hillsborough line runs through the skyway, but only about 1% or so which is an almost "no factor" in the maintenance and funds issue.

"HU"

[CS Foltz]

Ock.............I think your on to something! Maybe the powers that be would be of a mind to maybe consider that concept for a week............I don't think there would be much over the regular riders just for a day but for a longer period? Who knows.....they could market that concept and inform everyone to take advantage of what is available! They want to increase ridership..........they need to market in the proper perspective and using the broadest range of marketing tools!

[Charles Hunter]

So, CS are you willing for a tax increase to cover the cost of eliminating fares at JTA - not just for a day or week, but always? And if more people ride, there will be demand for more service - at more cost.

Oh, and I think it's a good idea, at least for the Skyway and within "downtown" (however you define DT).

[CS Foltz]

Well I don't think that a "Tax Increase" is warrented at this time Mr Charles. If you look at what the fares actually bring compared to what Advertising, on the bus's, brings in...........I would bet more money comes in from that than the fares actually produce! We subsidize JTA right now and appear to not have much say in how or what is offered as far as Mass Transit is concerned! I am just pointing out that a moratorium for a period of time, say a week, to establish just how this would work is something to consider. Trial period and see just what takes place and play it by ear from there. By the way, downtown I think ,should be the City proper not Duval County and if you stop and think about it............we already pay for JTA! I remember when its, JEA also, budget passed without discussion or review.......Council just rubber stamped what they asked for and I think that's wrong! You can not tell me there is not waste in both organizations and both are pass due for an outside Audit from an Independent Auditor!