Another major company abandoning Downtown for the Southside.

[Noone]

There are three  garages that are guaranteed an 8% profit.  One by the new courthouse, and two by the coliseum/ballpark. The subsidy is far more than what was anticipated originally.  Part of the reason is the courthouse is only now being built after a long delay.  

It was an 'unusual' deal to say the least.  It involved some very prominent and politically connected individuals.  The city claims it was spared the expense of building these garages itself and can collect property taxes on them.  Of course, the city in effect pays those taxes to itself, if a profit is not made (which is what is happening).    

The city looked at installed the 'modern' meters  that other cities have ( accepts cards, etc.), but cancelled those plans.  If memory serves, it would have cost less than a lot of the 'studies' the city pays for without the blink of an eye.

This issue needs to be revisited. It needs to also be included in the upcoming city council and mayoral campaign issues. Keep score. (Studies?) Take some of the $400,000 study money to move the fair to the Equestrian Center and use it for some modem meters in Downtown. Have a lottery. We just took $200,000 of the study money and if you want to have a state of the art parking meter in front of your business then get your name in the hat. They will be done in 5  parking meter intervals. If your neighbor wins along with you then that would mean that you and your neighbor could have 10 meters in front of your business. Wherever the meters end up that's where they end up. The drawing could take place at the Landing prior to the New Years Eve fireworks. What a way to bring in 2011. Jerry, You need to throw your name in the hat. Kris with Northstar you need to throw your name in the hat too and show up with a rabbit foot and both your fingers and toes crossed.

As to the panic attack by taking this $200,000 taxpayer money that was for this important study. The entire city needs to ask how much has been paid back of the $5,000,000 in private funding of the Equestrian center that was part of BJP. The prominent and politically connected at the very least can make up this $200,000 shortfall.  

Just passed the latest budget and does anyone know the numbers on just what the subsidy is for the taxpayers on the 3 garages? As I recall Warren Alverez was the only one who voted NO when this legislation went through council. If I'm wrong on that please let me know.

As for the modem meters. Bring them on! On Jaxoutloud I had a thread about parking meters that were stolen on streets around town. Duval st. Ashley and I counted around 25 that were just caught off. This was going on for a period of time and it wasn't 25 at once. But I noticed a couple of gone here and there. Most of these were 2 hour meters around Ashley and west of Main and Ashley. Now mind you an extended period of time had elapsed and I know because the two hour meter that I used was gone. Finally I called and the parking dept was unaware that some meters were gone. I told them the spots. The next day I'm driving through downtown and there are two people replacing the two hour meters with one hour meters. I mentioned to them that what was there before were two hour meters. They are replacing them with one hour meters.

The exodus will continue.

[tufsu1]

Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?

Parking is free in Gainesville and Greenville.

only on some streets...and even those have time limits

[tufsu1]

Wow 20 bucks a month.  Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people.  Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month).  $20 for an entire month?  I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL.  And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.

I started working in downtown Jacksonville in the mid '80s and garage rates were already over $50 per month then.  I certainly paid close to $100 per month in the 90s.  Never found any $20 garages, and I was always looking for a deal.  

You're right - no way can 20 bucks a spot service the construction loan.  The only way to get costs that low, or even below $50 per month, would be subsidies by the city.

exactly....while our downtown parking rates seem expensive to some, they are far cheaper than in other (bigger/better) cities....that is a reflection on the value of the property.

So, if downtown all of a sudden became wildly successful, $50-$100/month parking would be a thing of the past.

[JeffreyS]

Free on street parking (with time limits on some streets) does not solve the corporate problem directly. It can help solve the problem though by helping to create a more vibrant downtown worth paying a bit more for.

And yes it would help residents who have dedicated parking but also have errands and visitors.

[ChriswUfGator]

Also I just drove through Greenville and was completely underwhelmed.  It was not imo all that it was hyped up to be and seemed very very small (Don't fall for that Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson being 1.2 million person CSA crap).  And Greenville is not growing nearly as quickly as Jax.  It is a completely different city, but I'm glad for them I guess that on-street parking is free.  I would have happily paid if I had time and desire to walk around and take pics (because I guess I am used to paying in every downtown or urban submarket I go to).

And you know all this about Greenville's MSA growth rates etc., based on a car ride through town?

Also, you sort of missed the point about how cities like Greenville came up in this discussion. Downtown Jacksonville is so pathetically underpopulated that you are forced to bring in tiny cities for points of appropriate comparison. We all wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

So I'm not understanding your logic on all of this. So far, all you've done in this debate is try to compare Jacksonville to *actual* major cities with functional cores, which aren't comparable in any way. You have to go down the ladder to tiny cities in order to find urban environs as sparsely populated as ours, and now you apparently want to point out that the smaller cities are, well, smaller.

Well of course they're smaller, that's the point. They're smaller but their urban areas are actually more trafficked than ours, because they recognize it's not good business to hassle anyone who tries to visit.

[ChriswUfGator]

Btw, going back to the the original purpose of this thread, free on-street parking would not have kept any of these major corporate companies from moving to the Southside.  The corporate parking situation deals with the cost of dedicated parking (in some cases, dedicated parking for hundreds of employees) in the garages and surface lots. 

For example, my small firm will have to pay $90/month for each employee when we move to the Northbank.  There's 15 of us, so that adds up to $16,200 for parking a year.  Use the same numbers for a company like Adecco and that number rises above $400k/year for dedicated parking alone.  Move to the Southside and that's a ton of money saved in an environment (although its suburban) that's more lively and attractive for the average person.  Throw in the fact that suburban lease rates are also cheaper and it just doesn't make sense for many places to stay or relocate to DT Jax.  Until we stop trying to sell people a polished turd as a true urban center, the negative flow will continue.

Right, but the other half of my plan was that all city-owned garages should also be free. I think this would indeed affect overall parking rates downtown, as the garage owners would actually be forced to compete with alternatives then.

[ChriswUfGator]

Wow 20 bucks a month.  Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people.  Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month).  $20 for an entire month?  I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL.  And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.

I started working in downtown Jacksonville in the mid '80s and garage rates were already over $50 per month then.  I certainly paid close to $100 per month in the 90s.  Never found any $20 garages, and I was always looking for a deal.  

You're right - no way can 20 bucks a spot service the construction loan.  The only way to get costs that low, or even below $50 per month, would be subsidies by the city.

exactly....while our downtown parking rates seem expensive to some, they are far cheaper than in other (bigger/better) cities....that is a reflection on the value of the property.

So, if downtown all of a sudden became wildly successful, $50-$100/month parking would be a thing of the past.

Leave it to tufsu for a disingenuous comparison that doesn't quite add up. Our parking rates are excessive considering there is an oversupply and no real demand. Its a taxpayer funded monopoly, and there is no actual market reason for the rates here to be as high as they are. Who cares about what would happen if Jacksonville suddenly became SFO or NYC, what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

[tufsu1]

Right, but the other half of my plan was that all city-owned garages should also be free. I think this would indeed affect overall parking rates downtown, as the garage owners would actually be forced to compete with alternatives then.

don't you think that would be a bit unfair to the private owners who paid for the land to build their garages?  Its kind of the same argument people were using against Obama-care....that the government could set rates so low that private insurers couldn't compete.

[ChriswUfGator]

Right, but the other half of my plan was that all city-owned garages should also be free. I think this would indeed affect overall parking rates downtown, as the garage owners would actually be forced to compete with alternatives then.

don't you think that would be a bit unfair to the private owners who paid for the land to build their garages?  Its kind of the same argument people were using against Obama-care....that the government could set rates so low that private insurers couldn't compete.

So we are supposed to feel bad for the guys whose back room taxpayer-fleecing monopoly killed downtown in the first place? Why? Their policies did nothing but kill off a truly vibrant urban environment, while enriching themselves at taxpayer expense. They've had their run for the past 30+ years, we tried it that way already, and it failed miserably. Time to move on already.

[vicupstate]

Also I just drove through Greenville and was completely underwhelmed.  It was not imo all that it was hyped up to be and seemed very very small (Don't fall for that Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson being 1.2 million person CSA crap).  And Greenville is not growing nearly as quickly as Jax.  It is a completely different city, but I'm glad for them I guess that on-street parking is free.  I would have happily paid if I had time and desire to walk around and take pics (because I guess I am used to paying in every downtown or urban submarket I go to).

It too bad you didn’t stop in Greenville and actually experience it a little more.  A short drive thru is not much to make a judgment on.  Greenville has won many awards for its Downtown and nearly everyone that sees it for the first time is very impressed.  

I agree with you that parking alone is not the only problem that has to be tackled in creating a great DT. I also agree that appearances and safety perceptions are very important as well.

Actually, these are areas that Greenville has excelled in.

Parking:
There are 20,000 office workers in DT Greenville and the EASIEST time to find a parking space is M-F 9am-5pm.  I recently had a dentist appointment in the middle of the day in the middle of DT, and parked in literally the closest space to the door.   It was free for 2 hours, so I paid nothing.  Granted, that was an exceptional day, but normally I would only have to walk a block or less.  
First you have to understand, FREE Parking does not mean UNLIMITED parking.  Time restrictions are enforced from 9-5 M-F.  The office workers park in the garages and privately owned lots.  The on-street parking is for the customers.  No one is going to leave their office to move their car every two hours.
The ONLY parking issues are after 6 pm, particularly on the weekend.  DT is the nightlife and entertainment district for the entire metro, with about 150 restaurants and clubs.   There is significant retail as well, including a Publix and Staples within 3-4 blocks of Main St. The centerpiece park serves as a magnet for evening strolls, and people-watching.
All restrictions are lifted after 6pm, certain garages are free also.  The office workers are gone, but the patrons more than fill the void.  
Getting people to experience DT:
During the warm months, music-oriented events are held every Thursday and Friday evening.  There are THREE different free guides that are produced at regular intervals with extensive event listings and coverage year round.     The largest Festivals and Art events held throughout the year routinely draw 200,000 visitors in 48 hours.
Appearances:
Every morning, M-Sat. you will see city crews either power-washing the sidewalks, planting flowers, blowing leaves, etc.   The sidewalks are  as clean as a sidewalk can get.  Falls Park in the middle Of DT is ALWAYS clean and in bloom year-round.  Wedding and Prom pictures are a perpetual sight in this park.  There is a DEDICATED privately funded account that pays all the expenses for upkeep in Falls Park.  
Homeless:
Facilities serving the Homeless are on the outskirts of DT, not in the core.  For the most part they stay in the vicinity of the facilities that serve them. Due to the continuous presence of office workers, retail/restaurant patrons, residents, hotel and other visitors, the homeless are only a tiny fraction of the street crowd.  It is not uncommon to spend hours DT, and not see anyone that it obviously homeless.
Here is a different perspective of DT from someone that did more than drive through (click on the red headlines inside the link below)
http://www.usairwaysmag.com/city_profiles/city/greenville/

[JeffreyS]

look I m a general welfare healthcare guy but I don't think we need to extend that parking garages at this point .

[ChriswUfGator]

look I m a general welfare healthcare guy but I don't think we need to extend that parking garages at this point .

I know, isn't hilarious that some of the same people who decry "obamacare" have no problem with their taxes subsidizing all these backroom deals for privately owned parking garages? What's the difference?

[simms3]

Wow Chris, I already conceded that using the plan that I had forgotten well informed members of MetroJax came up with a while back could be effective if enforced.  I admitted I was wrong in that there is a better way, but without that way we would still have to charge for on street.

Now you have made some weird comments that don't at all sound intelligent.  I gave Greenville as an example after listing our peer cities and hearing you I believe pick my original list apart so I went down a notch to appease you and now you still have a problem with the list.  And all I have to do is open up to page 617 of the 2010 World Almanac which I have on my toilet to see this information for the top 78 MSAs (and now because Greenville was rightfully separated from Spartanburg and Anderson, I just hark back to my memory which tells me it was around a 1% annual growth rate...ours has been around 2%).  And for the Greenville lovers I made some positive comments last night on the Greenville thread

Chris, some of your recent statements sound just plain odd to me.  You might want to revisit them.  And not all of the private garages are the backroom operators.  Many private garages are owned by separate companies or the building owners.  Like I already said and I am surprised nobody picked up on, Charlotte does not have to subsidize its big city garage for Time Warner Center because it is in the heart of the city and can be used on any given day for stuff other than just events at Time Warner.  They charge, logically, for that garage, and that is just plain good planning/vision.  Good planning/vision will get done what we need done downtown to even warrant people coming and paying.  $1-2/hr for a visitor in a garage is a very fair price that would be cheaper than most cities and if the garage is full, then the city can probably actually turn a profit off of that.  City garages are not meant for office workers, but in our case due to the nature of our downtown it happens.

[ChriswUfGator]

Wow Chris, I already conceded that using the plan that I had forgotten well informed members of MetroJax came up with a while back could be effective if enforced.  I admitted I was wrong in that there is a better way, but without that way we would still have to charge for on street.

Now you have made some weird comments that don't at all sound intelligent.  I gave Greenville as an example after listing our peer cities and hearing you I believe pick my original list apart so I went down a notch to appease you and now you still have a problem with the list.  And all I have to do is open up to page 617 of the 2010 World Almanac which I have on my toilet to see this information for the top 78 MSAs (and now because Greenville was rightfully separated from Spartanburg and Anderson, I just hark back to my memory which tells me it was around a 1% annual growth rate...ours has been around 2%).  And for the Greenville lovers I made some positive comments last night on the Greenville thread

Chris, some of your recent statements sound just plain odd to me.  You might want to revisit them.  And not all of the private garages are the backroom operators.  Many private garages are owned by separate companies or the building owners.  Like I already said and I am surprised nobody picked up on, Charlotte does not have to subsidize its big city garage for Time Warner Center because it is in the heart of the city and can be used on any given day for stuff other than just events at Time Warner.  They charge, logically, for that garage, and that is just plain good planning/vision.  Good planning/vision will get done what we need done downtown to even warrant people coming and paying.  $1-2/hr for a visitor in a garage is a very fair price that would be cheaper than most cities and if the garage is full, then the city can probably actually turn a profit off of that.  City garages are not meant for office workers, but in our case due to the nature of our downtown it happens.

I tend to say a lot of stuff that's tongue in cheek, Simms. But I was being serious when I said I'm not sure what the difference is between paying for someone else's healthcare and paying for someone else's parking garage business, neither of which I personally use. What's the difference? Why are certain posters on this site (and I wasn't referring to you) against one and for the other? Contradictory, no? Or is it all OK as long as there's a corporation involved?

As far as the parking thing, you and I are in agreement on that then. I think free parking, maybe with time limits, is a good compromise. There is just no demand downtown to support the current structure, which is so enraging and unnecessarily expensive that most of the major employers and almost all of the small businesses bailed out. We are funding a taxpayer supported monopoly that is accomplishing nothing but enriching a group of 4 or 5 individual people who I won't name, and which has effectively killed the urban core.

[simms3]

The thing is that to corporations the parking in downtown Jax is cheap compared to other cities and these corporations are also in the other cities paying higher parking.  Adecco and Life of the South aren't in other cities, but I bet I can dig around and find other companies who have left downtown for "similar reasons" that are paying higher premiums in other cities.  The problem then isn't the parking, it's the utility of downtown.

Companies that have always been located on the Southside like Zurich Insurance and now the relocated Deutsche Bank NA (still not nearly as big or important as their NYC office) are typically located in downtowns in other cities.  They would probably be downtown here if it would be useful to them, and parking would be the price they pay to have access to that kind of utility.  BTW Everbank's corporate offices used to be on Phillips somewhere near JTB, and Rob actually moved the company to a more downtown like location.  I think Dupont Trust may have been the same (or were they located in one of those ugly 5 floor white buildings on the Southbank?).