Another major company abandoning Downtown for the Southside.

[simms3]

Stephen, I answered the question (at least partly) of why malls don't enforce the same parking.  Refer back to my post above.

And Chris, you lopped off a portion of my quote.  I said in one location I lived in in Midtown I did not feel the need or see the worth in paying for parking.  I am slightly more isolated where I am now and Midtown being 2 miles long I need a car and to park sometimes.  In a dense, concentrated downtown the people parking are not those who live there, they are those visiting, whether for work or for activity/leisure.  If a downtown has a ton of workers and a ton of retail/restuarants/destinations and NO residents, people will still feel compelled to park and see the value of it.  Therefore your argument about parking being the problem because there are no people downtown is mute.  There are no people downtown because there is no reason to be downtown.  If there were reason to be downtown people would more happily pay to park downtown.  Paying for parking is part of the "purchase price" of the product that downtown is.  Our downtown isn't really a good product and people aren't willing to pay for it.  Downtown residents would not be the parking payers because they would live downtown and walk.

[Singejoufflue]

Suburban retail developments are designed around their patrons use of a car and remaining for extended periods of time.  Having parking meters (and therefore enforcement) is not necessary as the disappointment of not getting a premium spot (front row) does not outweigh the cost of walking an extra twenty feet. 

[JeffreyS]

So simms3 based on your post it would be fair to say paying for parking now is a hurdle for downtown becoming prosperous enough to warrant paying for parking.

[ChriswUfGator]

Stephen, I answered the question (at least partly) of why malls don't enforce the same parking.  Refer back to my post above.

And Chris, you lopped off a portion of my quote.  I said in one location I lived in in Midtown I did not feel the need or see the worth in paying for parking.  I am slightly more isolated where I am now and Midtown being 2 miles long I need a car and to park sometimes.  In a dense, concentrated downtown the people parking are not those who live there, they are those visiting, whether for work or for activity/leisure.  If a downtown has a ton of workers and a ton of retail/restuarants/destinations and NO residents, people will still feel compelled to park and see the value of it.  Therefore your argument about parking being the problem because there are no people downtown is mute.  There are no people downtown because there is no reason to be downtown.  If there were reason to be downtown people would more happily pay to park downtown.  Paying for parking is part of the "purchase price" of the product that downtown is.  Our downtown isn't really a good product and people aren't willing to pay for it.  Downtown residents would not be the parking payers because they would live downtown and walk.

I didn't mean to cut out any of your post, I was just trying to split it so I could respond in 2 parts. Sorry if anything got cut it wasn't intentional.

And what I'm trying to say downtown is that the asinine parking situation has greatly helped cause the decline of any reason to be there. The small businesses left, citing this as a problem. The major corps are leaving, citing this as a problem. Without any draw, there naturally will be no people, and without customers there will be no businesses. This is a vicious cycle and parking is at the middle of it. This isn't a chicken or egg concept, it all kind of happened at once.

[ChriswUfGator]

Suburban retail developments are designed around their patrons use of a car and remaining for extended periods of time.  Having parking meters (and therefore enforcement) is not necessary as the disappointment of not getting a premium spot (front row) does not outweigh the cost of walking an extra twenty feet. 

So can you actually answer the simple question or not.

[simms3]

And Stephen and Chris, can you guys name one large downtown that does not charge a visitor to park?

And going back to my mall example, Atlantic Station was more of a cohesive destination project developed essentially by a few corporate partners (the retail portion really only 1).  It's a fairly complete destination and was a brownfield that came with huge incentives (they were essentially paid to develop the land so the land was more than free).  It is not unlike a mall (1 developer, cheap land).  Visitors get 2 hours free and moviegoers can validate their parking ticket if the movie takes longer.

The parking garage for 1010 Midtown has 2 levels of 2 hour free parking for visitors of tenants IN the building (must get pass validated and be there for 2 hours or less to be free).  Metropolis is in such a high demand centralized location that they actually CAN charge an arm and a leg for visitors who park in its garage (and no validation from Taco Mac or other tenants like Drew Ellis and Silk).  These are large scale developments.  Small scale developments rely on on-street parking and other stand alone garage parking because they don't turn enough of a profit to subsidize any parking for visitors (like the garage component of AS).  The city provides the on-street parking as a service and developers build/operate stand alone garages, which are also a service.  They aren't free.  The garage operators aren't servicing their construction loans from condo sales and commercial leases.

[ChriswUfGator]

And Stephen and Chris, can you guys name one large downtown that does not charge a visitor to park?

Well I have to stop you right there, because with our whopping 7k workers (mostly COJ) and couple hundred residents, we are not a large downtown. Again, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges.

[Singejoufflue]

Stephen, what is the answer you want me to say?  Comparing a large suburban retail development to a independent downtown retail store is apples and oranges.  Land is cheaper in the suburbs.  The space is developed around cars.  It's build to suit, not retrofit.

[ChriswUfGator]

And Stephen and Chris, can you guys name one large downtown that does not charge a visitor to park?

Well I have to stop you right there, because with our whopping 7k workers (mostly COJ) and couple hundred residents, we are in no way shape or form a large downtown. Again, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges.

Chris Im sure that Simms readily acknowledges this.

Then let's stop comparing Jacksonville to cities like BOS and ORD. Those are ludicrous comparisons that have no real merit and tend to confuse the issue by comparing locations with actual population density that can support such policies without too much pain, to Jacksonville where these policies are the root of our pain.

[simms3]

So simms3 based on your post it would be fair to say paying for parking now is a hurdle for downtown becoming prosperous enough to warrant paying for parking.

I don't think making parking free is enough to make it easy and swell enough for independent investors to open small businesses downtown to provide an influx of services for employees, residents, and visitors.  I also don't think it would work (why haven't any other downtowns done it?).

I think what would be more helpful to spur downtown investment would be better policies, looser regulation, tax breaks on top of what we already have, and the city getting out of the way and doing streetscapes to widen sidewalks and make downtown more attractive.  As we can all probably agree, the independents coming in will eventually build momentum for more residents to come in.  More residents will build momentum for chains to come in.  The last piece will be more companies coming in because of more residents and the fact that downtown is once again a viable place to be.

BTW, even in larger cities submarkets like say Decatur in East Atlanta, and let's mention East Atlanta while we're at it, and garages in Buckhead, and any submarket you can think of parking is not free there either.  There are either meters, electronic machines (those are mostly still in Midtown only because they were a Midtown Alliance CID initiative), or garages.  I guarantee you guys that the best thing that Riverside/5 Points can do is build a sufficient garage and charge a small amount.  It will take a few more years of infill to warrant the demand, but put in Insetta's restaurant and several more similar projects and a garage will actually be needed.  I know if 5 Points got too crowded, I wouldn't even bother "looking" for a space, I would drive straight to the garage where I know there would be a space.

The East San Marco project would be similar to projects in Atlanta.  Because it is a more cohesive project, they may have a visitor section of the garage with 2 hour max and validation from tenant in ESM to be free.  Otherwise I'm sure they too would charge for parking.

And don't discount land costs in why everything in urban environments is more expensive from parking to restaurant prices to living costs to insurance premiums, etc.  Land costs have a significant effect on everything, and the more built up an environment the more expensive the land.

[simms3]

Is parking free in OKC, Nashville, Birmingham, Orlando, Tampa, Austin, Louisville, list goes on?

[ChriswUfGator]

Stephen, what is the answer you want me to say?  Comparing a large suburban retail development to a independent downtown retail store is apples and oranges.  Land is cheaper in the suburbs.  The space is developed around cars.  It's build to suit, not retrofit.

That's not the point, and you're ducking the question...

It's harder at any given time of day to find a parking space on one of those main streets in the town center than it is to find a parking space in downtown Jacksonville. You generally have to park and walk several hundred yards or more to get to the store you're going to from the parking space you found. So why, then, is SJTC still successful despite people being (according to you) idiots who won't walk, and can't figure out what to do absent a bunch of asinine parking rules, meters, and cops?

Why doesn't SJTC use parking cops and meters then?

Like I asked, could it be because that would run people off?

[simms3]

Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?

[simms3]

Allo of those cities are.

[ChriswUfGator]

Is parking free in OKC, Nashville, Birmingham, Orlando, Tampa, Austin, Louisville, list goes on?

Downtown Jacksonville is not even remotely close to any of those examples either...

Savannah's urban center is far more dense than jacksonville's at this point, and parking is free.