High-Speed Rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida Transportation

[Lunican]

Florida is a leading contender for high-speed rail funding


The ride from Tampa to Orlando International Airport would take 64 minutes on a high-speed train.

By TED JACKOVICS  | The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 25, 2009

Updated: 10:06 am

TAMPA - As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation's first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

On Friday, 40 states will file detailed high-speed rail project applications with the Federal Railroad Administration. In December, President Barack Obama will announce which will get money from the $787 billion federal stimulus plan to generate jobs.

If Florida gets the $2.5 billion it seeks, it will represent a stunning reversal of political fortunes â€" after 25 years of promise and setbacks â€" that will provide thousands of new jobs as early as 2011, when construction on the 95-mile Tampa-Orlando segment could begin.

Full Article:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/25/251006/florida-leading-contender-high-speed-rail-funding/news-metro/

[Ocklawaha]

Sure is a good thing that the world will end in 2012, otherwise we'd all see this thing drag every rail project in our future right into a sewer.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

We can thank Mayor Johnny and his faithfull servants for a lack of vision and no plan what so ever! Rail......what the hell is that? Bozoo's can not see past their noses or their pockets!

[FayeforCure]

Will Florida Be America’s Shining Example That 21st Century Rail Can Work?Posted on Friday September 25th by Jebediah Reed


6diggs
If high speed rail is ever going to have a chance of taking root in the US, we’re going need to need a working example that makes everybody jealous.

Specifically, we’re thinking here of a world-class high speed link here in the US, that will make the media machine whir and tourists talk, that looks pretty on tv and execerbates regional rivalries. Since human beings are monkeys and all, generally the quickest way to get us to care about anything is to turn it into a status game and provoking indignation and insecurity. It would be our version of Madrid-to-Seville.

So, let’s say New York out of nowhere decides to roll big and fast-tracks a 250-mph link between NYC and Albany. State pols like Hiram Monserrateâ€"better known as the fellow who’ll take a busted bottle to his girlfriend’s face if she displeases himâ€"can make the journey in half an hour. Seriously: half an hour to Albany. That’s quicker than a lot of subway trips to Brooklyn. Plus, no walking around in sock feet at LaGuardia or creeping along the Major Deegan expressway. It’s a crazy-world proposition, of course, except that if China were running the USâ€"as it someday mightâ€"that shit would already be in works. Why? It just makes sense.

Across the rest of the country, this link would serve as both a model and a gauntlet thrown down. In Texas, state legislators might see the quick, easy and civilized trip Hiram was taking to work and say, “Damn, maybe we should think seriously about getting this T-Bone thing built sometime this century.” And so on.

It could happen! Maybe. Ever since we saw Jay Yarrow make an argument along these lines over at Business Insiderâ€"giving all the stimulus money to California’s HSR project, to create a national modelâ€"we’ve been noodling about the possibilities.

But our problem with Jay’s case is that California is such a massive project that by the time it’s built out enough to convince anybody of anything, another decade or more will have passed. We need something of more modest scope, and we need it now. Ideally, of course, this would be Washington DC-to-New York. But given all the chefs that would have to be involved in cooking that stew, we’re not optimistic on that front (short of the magical emergence of a Robert Moses-style “infrastructure czar” emerges who can just punch it through).

But it’s looking more and more like Florida might be the answer. From today’s Tampa Tribune:

As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation’s first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

Of course, this is contingent on getting $2.5 billion in federal funds from the stimulus sweepstakes. But there’s plenty of reason to think that might happen. The state owns the right of way, and the project is essentially designed and shovel-ready. The link would also be meaningful first step toward a larger systemâ€"targeted for 2017 completionâ€"connecting Tampa and Orlando to Miami (and Jacksonville, via Amtrak.)

Now, this sounds almost perfect â€" so naturally there’s a problem. In this case, it’s that the train to Orlando doesn’t actually go to Orlando. It goes to the airport. Now, Orlando has a very busy airport so this proposed route would certainly be of interest to many Floridians and tourists. But this also means it’s a glorified airport shuttle rather than a real intercity rail link, of the sort that civilized people elsewhere in the would want and demand.

At The Transport Politic, Yonah offers a fine suggestion: “In Orlando, trains could continue up I-4 into downtown after the Convention Center stop, and then head back towards the airport, from which trains south to Miami would eventually extend.

The downside of that routing change would be slowing the project down and interfering with this whole “showpiece” business. The upside would be, you know, doing it right. Jeez, Marsha, why does everything always have to be so complicated!

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/25/will-florida-be-americas-shining-example-that-21st-century-rail-can-work/

[Ocklawaha]

Now, this sounds almost perfect â€" so naturally there’s a problem. In this case, it’s that the train to Orlando doesn’t actually go to Orlando. It goes to the airport. Now, Orlando has a very busy airport so this proposed route would certainly be of interest to many Floridians and tourists. But this also means it’s a glorified airport shuttle rather than a real intercity rail link, of the sort that civilized people elsewhere in the would want and demand.

At The Transport Politic, Yonah offers a fine suggestion: “In Orlando, trains could continue up I-4 into downtown after the Convention Center stop, and then head back towards the airport, from which trains south to Miami would eventually extend.

The downside of that routing change would be slowing the project down and interfering with this whole “showpiece” business. The upside would be, you know, doing it right. Jeez, Marsha, why does everything always have to be so complicated!

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/25/will-florida-be-americas-shining-example-that-21st-century-rail-can-work/

We better change the route or this is all the HSR anyone is going to see. It should be possible to swing into the CSX Orlando Mainline somewhere South and West of the Amtrak Station, and certainly before the Church Street Station. Otherwise the whole project is a downside... along with missing Tampa Union Station (which we also already own).

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

And it took a 400K study to come to this conclusion? Screwed again...........I can see it coming! Anyone want to take bets Florida will lose out again? If Mickey wants a train.......let Mickey build it!

[FayeforCure]

CS Foltz, let's recap the excellent article I previously posted about Florida's exceptional opportunity!

Will Florida Be America’s Shining Example That 21st Century Rail Can Work?

If high speed rail is ever going to have a chance of taking root in the US, we’re going need to need a working example that makes everybody jealous.

Specifically, we’re thinking here of a world-class high speed link here in the US, that will make the media machine whirl and tourists talk, that looks pretty on tv and execerbates regional rivalries. Since human beings are monkeys and all, generally the quickest way to get us to care about anything is to turn it into a status game and provoking indignation and insecurity. It would be our version of Madrid-to-Seville.

California is such a massive project that by the time it’s built out enough to convince anybody of anything, another decade or more will have passed. We need something of more modest scope, and we need it now. Ideally, of course, this would be Washington DC-to-New York. But given all the chefs that would have to be involved in cooking that stew, we’re not optimistic on that front (short of if the magical emergence of a Robert Moses-style “infrastructure czar” emerges who can just punch it through).

Florida might be the answer. From today’s Tampa Tribune:

As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation’s first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

Of course, this is contingent on getting $2.5 billion in federal funds from the stimulus sweepstakes. But there’s plenty of reason to think that might happen. The state owns the right of way, and the project is essentially designed and shovel-ready. The link would also be meaningful first step toward a larger systemâ€"targeted for 2017 completionâ€"connecting Tampa and Orlando to Miami (and Jacksonville, via Amtrak.)


http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/25/will-florida-be-americas-shining-example-that-21st-century-rail-can-work/

It's quick, it's relatively inexpensive, and it's a great showcase for HSR FAST.

Besides as Floridians we'd do anything to bring jobs to our state, wouldn't we?!

Those dedicated federal HSR funds are nothing to sneeze at. Let's bring $2.5 billion to Florida!!!!!

And let me remind you of tufsu1's recent comment to you:

dude....Jit will be much harder for Jax to have high speed rail if we don't support that infrastructure in Florida's biggest cities too.

[buckethead]

So as a Congresswoman, would you be supporting the proposed HSR sytem?

Have you considered any points you have seen made here on MJ? Clearly we have some valuable expertise on the board and it seems to me that those with expertise in rail logistics believe the HSR proposal as written is another white elephant. Can you show evidence to the contrary?

What area of district 7 do you expect the greatest voter support from?

I'm in your district Faye, and would be interested to know your position.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't get it Faye, are you saying you support HSR because it will bring $2.5 Billion to the state in "free" Federal dollars? I don't care who wins your race, but who ever wins, needs to step up and lead. Nobody can tell us that a rail line from Orlando, which doesn't go into Orlando, to Tampa, that misses the regional rail terminal in Tampa, is going to be a winner. It might have some novelty value but as transportation need, it won't do a thing for Floridians.

The evidence is flawed too. For 30 years we've been hearing of Mag-Lev, flying trains and every other manner of device from OIA to Disney. Now the whole thing has been neatly packaged to sound like America's front running HSR project. Do you smell a rat in this plan? Anyone could write glowing successful projections of a high speed rail line from Callahan to Waldo, and package it to sound like the Jacksonville - Gainesville HSR link. Won't work. Sure we can get free money. I can go to the county and get free birth control pills too, but you won't see me hanging around down there.
It just isn't needed the way they have it planned.

In Europe these trains enter into most cities over the regular routes (read that Amtrak in the USA) they obtain their exclusive HSR line after leaving the major terminals. Take about 50% Sunrail and 50% HSR, talk it up and you'd have a winning combination.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Faye...........you misunderstand my trepidation! I have no problem with 2.5 Billion Dollars showing up in Florida for a mass transit solution..........I do have doubts that it will ever take place. I have posted before "If the Mouse wants a railroad, then let the Mouse build it"! Federal Funds (mine and your tax dollars) to be used to benefit a minority and very small chunk of Florida will be wasted and more than likely this will be just a Mouse feeder system. This is not an accurate test platform for a system viability and demonstration purposes. The current plan is more of an airport shuttle service to a downtown area rather than a true HSR System to prove the concept of moving numbers of people from point A to point B. I am trying to keep an open mind so convince me if you can. I am more than willing to discuss the issue but I still have major reservations as this test is set up!

[tufsu1]

And it took a 400K study to come to this conclusion? Screwed again...........I can see it coming! Anyone want to take bets Florida will lose out again? If Mickey wants a train.......let Mickey build it!

and why do you think $400,000 is a lot for the study....in fact, I can tell you that about $10 million has been spent on studies for the current HSR proposal (TPA-ORL-MIA)...understand that detailed environmental and investment grade ridership studies don't come cheap!

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1........HSR is a different ballgame compared to the JTA Study conducted by the Pennsylvania Consulting Firm. I understand environmental/investment grade studies and the need for them, but question the cost for what I see as a rehash of past studies with a dose of MJ slant on things! I question 400K cost for something that I could have generated and would have if asked. HSR is something else and I still say..........Mouseville wants a railroad, then let them use their money to build it! I can not see using my tax dollars to build something that is of no benefit to me what so ever!  2.5 Billion cost of system for that part of the world and it will be wasted without any benefit to the rest of Florida.

[FayeforCure]

buckethead, Ock and CS Foltz, I think it's going to be hard to find common ground if we don't at least agree that every tourist taken off the road spells relief for the local commuters.

This tourist vs resident commuters issue was also what killed rational cost/benefit thinking in past light speed rail considerations, though I would have wanted to have the LRT proceed anyway:

Hoenstine, a general contractor, said he voted against the (light rail) train from downtown to International Drive because it wouldn't have had as many riders as one running from I-Drive to the airport.

Supporters understood that but said the feds had approved money only for the downtown route that would serve actual residents (vs. tourists).

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-scott-maxwell-where-now-091809,0,7796673.column

From a pure cost/benefit perspective, higher ridership irrespective of tourist vs resident commuters is preferable over lower ridership with mostly resident commuters.

[thelakelander]

Are you claiming that the HSR plan will draw more riders by appealing to tourist only instead of being set up to serve multiple markets?

[FayeforCure]

Are you claiming that the HSR plan will draw more riders by appealing to tourist only instead of being set up to serve multiple markets?

You're kidding right?

I am claiming that the mix of tourist AND resident commuters is very beneficial for HSR. Being fixated on primarily resident commuters would be a mistake.