High-Speed Rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida Transportation

[FayeforCure]

Interesting point on passenger rail vs. freight rail in California

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_13096956?nclick_check=1

That link didn't work for me. Here is a better link:

http://www.mercurynews.com/california-high-speed-rail/ci_13096956

[Ocklawaha]

Interesting point on passenger rail vs. freight rail in California

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_13096956?nclick_check=1

That link didn't work for me. Here is a better link:

http://www.mercurynews.com/california-high-speed-rail/ci_13096956

Hey y'all, this sounds more like a pissing contest between the CALTRAIN folks who probably have a very limited budget, so have planed a lower economy version of the overhead cantenary, and Union Pacific, which want's the full 24' of clearance under the wires. The railroad is upset because the double stack container cars fully loaded won't fit under the wire, killing much of the economy, and raising the price of rail. As for the schedule cutoff times, with PTC and perhaps a third or LOCAL track laid, that can also be solved. This should NOT reflect on anything here. Trains all over the world operate freight and passenger in double stacks and under wire. I haven't studied the case, but it seems the likely cause.

The staff at the FHSRC being FDOT, I believe that TUFSU1 is referring to every planner, pencil pusher, and engineer in the project, rather then the board of directors. (Often these board assignments are simply political pay back for support in an election year, and not much more).
The Board certainly doesn't have to know a darn thing about railroads, as proved by the JTA board being local developers!


OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

ConnectUs also has won the support of politicians, including Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, who on Aug. 18 held a press conference to endorse and announce the official launch of ConnectUs. “We are united, and Florida is ready to get moving,” Castor said.

Florida has a good chance to receive the stimulus funding because it is the only state of the 10 that has secured all of the right of way and all of the permits, she said.

Turanchik said his goal for ConnectUs is to link together political and governmental leaders, business groups, environmental groups, labor groups and Floridians in support of high-speed rail.

“We have a once in a lifetime chance to secure $2.5 billion to build a high-speed rail system down the median of I-4 and raise the foundation for a great transportation system in the state,” Turanchik said. “We don’t want to lose that chance.”

Drumming up support
Online, ConnectUs at www.fastrailconnectus.com touts the environmental benefits and job creation that would come with high-speed rail. Its events calendar will post public events and “milestones” as they are announced. The site features an “action center” that allows users to write e-mails directly to elected officials. ConnectUs, which has a Twitter feed and a Facebook page, encourages visitors to leave comments. â€" Margaret Cashill

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2009/08/24/story4.html?b=1251086400%5E1976461

[CS Foltz]

That article said "Down the median of I-4"! What the hell are they ingesting? What the hell does I-4 do for the east coast or anywhere else in Florida? If the Mouse wants a rail system, let them build their own!

[Ocklawaha]

So right my friend. If I-4 is north of most of the towns between Orlando and Tampa, the only thing building stations on I-4 is going to do is force these towns to reach the railroad. In other words, if this isn't completely a set up by the resident RAT in central Florida, the it smells of SPRAWL development.

The money being lost on this one 70 mile segment could supply all of Florida with luxury trains, speeding at 80-90 mph between every major city.

Nope! Can't do that, makes too much sense, already been done somewhere or other, so lets be bold and do something else STUPID!

M. I. C. K. E. Y.    M. O. U. S. E. !

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

So right my friend. If I-4 is north of most of the towns between Orlando and Tampa, the only thing building stations on I-4 is going to do is force these towns to reach the railroad. In other words, if this isn't completely a set up by the resident RAT in central Florida, the it smells of SPRAWL development.

The money being lost on this one 70 mile segment could supply all of Florida with luxury trains, speeding at 80-90 mph between every major city.

Nope! Can't do that, makes too much sense, already been done somewhere or other, so lets be bold and do something else STUPID!

M. I. C. K. E. Y.    M. O. U. S. E. !

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, as I said previously, I am with you on this.  Just think, if they proceed, you and I will both be able to point to our pet "Mickey Mouse" projects! 

[FayeforCure]

You know Stephen, though I can see that the Florida HSR bypasses downtown Lakeland and downtown Orlando ( for now), I also understand that both downtowns have the ability to provide easy access to the HSR.

In other words, this set up doesn't necessarily cause more sprawl.

What allows me to feel comfortable about the NO SPRAWL effect of HSR is that those who vehemently support this HSR project are themselves very credible in their NO MORE SPRAWL stand:

ConnectUs Executive Staff

Ed Turanchik is the President of ConnectUs Inc. He served on the Hillsborough County Commission from 1990-1998 and on Governor Chiles high speed rail committee in the 1990’s. He now builds affordable, energy efficient urban homes in Tampa.

Turanchik is widely recognized as an authority and leader on transportation and growth management issues and received the National Metropolitan Planning Organization’s National Leadership Award.

He also has received the 1000 Friends of Florida Public Servant of the Year and Florida Audubon’s Local Public Servant of the Year awards. Turanchik led Florida’s Olympic bid committee in the late 1990’s, which focused its efforts in the I-4 corridor.

I myself received my urban planning training in the world's most densely populated European country in the world.( only Hong Kong and Singapore are more densely populated), so I truly believe in rejecting sprawl.

As an economist, I also believe in ultilizing the most economical route at achieving HSR in Florida: that is down the I-4 median. In addition, lack of curves in that route ( no little detours into smaller towns) allows this train to achieve high speeds.

[thelakelander]

What good is it to get into the terminal points "10 minutes faster" if a significant portion of I-4 traffic comes from the small towns the train bypasses?  Cost aside, this is the fundamental issue I have with the plan as drawn up. $3.5 billion and we can't even get service to some of the fastest growing cities in the region.

Btw, what would be the difference in time from end point to end point for HSR vs an Amtrak corridor service on existing rail?

[Ocklawaha]

As an economist, I also believe in utilizing the most economical route at achieving HSR in Florida: that is down the I-4 median. In addition, lack of curves in that route ( no little detours into smaller towns) allows this train to achieve high speeds.

So sprawl didn't follow Disney, or fill in to Orlando International Airport, The Greeneway? There is absolutely nothing to stop developers (many we probably haven't even heard of) from slopping houses and malls all the way to the newest Disney ride.

As a railroad guy, I'd tell you there is no way in hell that I-4 is the most economical route. If you thought Central Florida Commuter Rail was a bloated give away at tax payer expense, you should be pulling your hair out with our HSR plan. We have had dozens of planners, urbanest and railroaders tell you that the I-4 deal stinks to high heaven. Why not embrace a state wide approach? Why Disney, Airlines, and the median of a expressway? Why the fixation on Orlando - Tampa? Ever seen I-95, JTB or Philips Highway during rush hours? Why not Jacksonville?

You do realize of course, that a self contained and exclusive passenger railroad will have to have work shops to support the trains. Amtrak already has major shops in Miami and Sanford, FEC has them in Jacksonville as does Watco Shortlines. So this train will miss every bit of the support system requiring a whole new shop complex and worse, one that can't be used by any other carrier.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

What good is it to get into the terminal points "10 minutes faster" if a significant portion of I-4 traffic comes from the small towns the train bypasses?  Cost aside, this is the fundamental issue I have with the plan as drawn up. $3.5 billion and we can't even get service to some of the fastest growing cities in the region.

Well, in Europe there is the "intercity" HSR, and the "STOP" train that stops at the smaller towns. They are two distinct entities that often do share some track.

I'm not sure about the "Fastest growing cities" label going into the future, when we might experience a mass exodus from FL, the way CA has experienced. But regardless, we can have local convenient transportation to connect up with the Florida HSR, or like people who use Barta in San Fransisco,.......many in the suburbs drive to their Barta stop.

[thelakelander]

^local and express would work great on the existing CSX rail line.  However, I've heard that the local transit option is not on the table for HSR in the median of I-4.  Tufsu1, can you confirm?

As for the cities inbetween, you can't ignore them, which the current HSR plan does.  For example, those commuting between US 27 and the Bee Line or from Lakeland/Plant City to I-75 and Tampa are more likely to clog up the road than tourist commuting directly from DT Tampa to Disney or MCO.

Tying them into the system should be a higher priority than express service between DT Tampa and MCO.

[JeffreyS]

Put it this way you do not see the express elevator that skips many of the lower floors without already having elevators in place to serve all of the floors.

[Ocklawaha]

It's just another case of Florida "leadership," with twinkle in their glazed eyes. "We're Florida afterall, the great playground of the world, certainly they'll fund us even if we proposed a rocket train to the moon!"

My best guess is, there will be a reality check at the door when that cash goes sailing out. I suspect the Midwest High Speed Rail Coalition to score the lions share of funding. Why? It's a multi state effort that spreads trains across an entire section of the country. It will improve existing track, build overpasses and raise speeds to 79-90 MPH.

Second will be the North Carolina - Virginia pact to rebuild the old "S" line from Richmond to Raleigh, with 90 MPH track and some sections of faster track.

We could probably count Washington - Oregon Cascade Corridor, and some funds to improve things in California.

Those of us that show up with Buck Rogers in hand, will be thanked, told to "keep on improving your plan." Knowing Florida, we'll go home with tail between our legs and crank up the expressway machine once again. Economic stimulus you understand. At about this time in history, Jacksonville will lay down a 1000 foot platform with an office trailer downtown for a depot. S.N.A.F.U.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

^I can so see that happening. I think if Jacksonville sadly has a better chance to be connected to Savanna with the Southeast HSR than the Florida plans coming together.

[Ocklawaha]

Worth 1,000 words!

YUP Jeffery, too right.

Just on the merits of the extensive work both North Carolina and Virginia have done in reestablishment of passenger rail service, Southeast HSR will move ahead. We might even get a little residual benefit from whatever they do north of the border.

My crystal ball is still somewhat foggy on the subject, but I could see another NY-FL train and/or Atlanta getting into the system. A new train routing down the Crescent Limited's foothill route to Charlotte, and hence nearly straight south through Columbia, Savannah, JAX, would probably be a real winner for ridership.

It's sad that Florida doesn't have enough sense to be VERY active with our north of the border partner states. I think HSR is going to have to be a regional interest item before it ever approaches what the EU has. A pact with Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina... could pay off in huge dividends down the road. Meanwhile getting the entire fleet of MIDWEST - FLORIDA trains back in service only helps our neighbors out, and oh BTW, it puts Jacksonville back on top as the meeting hall of the rails. Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis, Knoxville, Cincinnati, Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Atlanta, Macon, Valdosta, Jessup, we would all dance to the same tune, but the band would be on Jacksonville's stage.

In fact we don't even need FDOT to play with us to kick something like this off, JTA could set up a meeting of the movers and shakers, and get the ball in play.

OCKLAWAHA