High-Speed Rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida Transportation

[FayeforCure]

Doesn't this HSR proprosal sound like another Disney extortion of taxpayers?

To  deny the points Ock makes as valid, or even cause for further investigation is irresponsible.

It is easy to swoon those who are desparately seeking.

Ah, but Ock didn't mind the CRX extortion of taxpayers, and didn't think THAT was cause for further investigation or renegotiating. Quite irresponsible there, won't you say?

On the "Disney extortion," I was told that Disney initially didn't want a stop, so please tell me again how HSR is supposed to be a Disney train.........

[CS Foltz]

As I understand it.....initial HSR is projected for Orlando to Orlando Airport since that corridor is in place. The Mouse can do their own mass transit.....I am more concerned about the rest of Florida!

[FayeforCure]

As I understand it.....initial HSR is projected for Orlando to Orlando Airport since that corridor is in place. The Mouse can do their own mass transit.....I am more concerned about the rest of Florida!

I am most concerned with Florida not seizing the opportunity of the availability of dedicated HSR funds that bring much needed jobs to Florida.

As Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach says 'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

[JeffreyS]

Amtrak is working they grow and succeed with every new project.  Ridership is up there are tracks all over the state.  I am not anti HSR it is just that rail money would go so much farther for commuters, residents and even tourists by saturating the state with 90-110 mph trains than just a section of central Florida with one 220 mph super train.  Both would be under the American definition HSR and should Qualify for those funds.

Ask yourself which plan
serves more people?
gives more coverage?
relives congestion on more roads?
has more ROW in place?
can be enacted faster?
claims to be able to break even on costs?
could take you to more destinations you would like to go?
would feed Miami's tri rail, Tampa's streetcar and Jacksonville's skyway?
can make improvements to all of  Florida's metro area rail systems that could be used by those areas to add commuter systems at reduced costs?

They could both be great systems which should we do first?

[Ocklawaha]

Let's spend 2 or 3 Billion so I can arrive 10 minutes faster...

As I understand it.....initial HSR is projected for Orlando to Orlando Airport since that corridor is in place. The Mouse can do their own mass transit.....I am more concerned about the rest of Florida!

I am most concerned with Florida not seizing the opportunity of the availability of dedicated HSR funds that bring much needed jobs to Florida.

As Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach says 'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

So we should run willy-nilly to Washington with our hands out for a wad of cash just to make sure we get to spend it? This system is so poorly planned (as is) that it has almost no chance to become the seed of a future successful HSR network. The whole HSR Statewide proposal is more like a really bad nightmare rather then a dream of railroaders. Long extensions along I-10 to serve Chipley, Quincy and Monticello, when the CSX mainline is already there with a state passenger rail investment in track, signals, and stations? How about the "Grand Trunk," which completely ignores the existence of Jacksonville, and runs from Lake City to Orlando, via Ocala. Did anyone in Tallahassee ever attend UF? If so why isn't Gainesville to be linked to (Shand's) Jacksonville? Worse
still, the rapidly urbanizing west coast of Florida is pretty much out of the game, sold down the river for stations in Lake Butler and McIntosh?

Our rabid environmentalist readers will enjoy the proposed line from Orlando to Daytona Beach, Orlando to Titusville, and Orlando to Melbourne. Seems it's an either/or choice of routes but however you cut that cake it will stomp all over the headwaters of the St. Johns River. Not to mention cashing out Orange Park, Palatka, and Deland, in exchange for Bunnell and Palm Coast?

No support for Central Florida Commuter Rail? Basing your argument against commuter rail on whether or not your old opponent John Mica supported it, leaves you straining at gnats for attention. At the very worse, the Commuter Rail line is located in the heart of the most densly populated communities in Central Florida. You seem to play the old anti-big industry card and desire to seize the property of a privately held corporation. This is like the FEC RY. moving in and taking a 60 mile chunk of I-95 with no plan to compensate anyone for it.

Florida already has a Billion dollar rail network, lets improve it and use it.

Frankly I don't know what Mica's position is on this issue, though one could tell by just watching which direction you are attacking. I will NOT SUPPORT such a badly planned Mouse Toy, even if you were to revive Jefferson by God Davis, to put his seal of approval on it.

OCKLAWAHA

[Captain Zissou]

I am most concerned with Florida not seizing the opportunity of the availability of dedicated HSR funds that bring much needed jobs to Florida.

As Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach says 'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

This is ridiculous thinking.  This is the most backwards philosophy ever.  Build train first, think later.  A train from nowhere to nowhere is still a train from nowhere to nowhere whether there is random stimulus money earmarked for it or not.  We have already proved how much Amtrak or the FEC line would benefit from less than $100M, why not start there?

I don't know if the Tebow reference in the title was supposed to be funny, but it was just stupid.  Tebow is far more level headed than this backwards plan for HSR.

[FayeforCure]

I see your point JeffreyS and Ock. However the HSR projects that are expected to be funded by the dedicated HSR stimulus funding are these types:

And these high-speed rail lines aren’t your average Amtrak. Just ask Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle. He recently went on a trip to Spain to check out high-speed rail lines there. Spanish high-speed trains that are a part of the Talgo system travel at 180 miles per hour, and Doyle told USA Today that the ride “is as smooth as riding in an airplane without any turbulence.”
By comparison, Amtrak's Acela trains run on an electrified track and travel at 135 miles per hour, according to USA Today.
Doyle traveled to Spain in late February where he reviewed Spain’s passenger rail system and met with officials from Spain’s Talgo, a company that manufactures passenger trains, according to a press release from Doyle’s office.

http://csg-web.csg.org/pubs/statenews/enews/issue16_2.aspx

Agree with it or not. I don't want Florida to be left behind as it usually is. We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of these dedicated HSR funds. Nationally, the potential routes have already been determined.

At the same time we need to push for Amtrak rail upgrades to be able to speed up existing Amtrak trains ( this is not expected to be paid from the current HSR stimulus pot).

The HSR stimulus money was intended for visionary HSR, not for rail upgrades. I admit however that their offer is just a drop in the bucket compared to the real HSR demand out there.

[JeffreyS]

Faye you make compelling arguements and I will not oppose HSR as long as it is not at the expense of Amtrak coridor upgrades in FLA. Amtrak is the better of two good ideas and should come first.

[Ocklawaha]

Faye you make compelling arguments and I will not oppose HSR as long as it is not at the expense of Amtrak corridor upgrades in FLA. Amtrak is the better of two good ideas and should come first.

Jeffery, once Florida comits a few Billion to High Speed Rail, the chances of us getting proper funding for a California style, state, "higher speed," Amtrak Florida system, will be off the table.
Just as the geniuses in Tallahassee wanted to take the funds from Tri-Rail in South Florida in order to build the Orlando system. Disney influence? I really can't say, but insanity to be sure. We need level heads, good research, use what we have FIRST, then grow into the big leagues, one Amtrak and Commuter Rail line at a time.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

I agree Ock no doubt HSR should be in line behind Amtrak

[FayeforCure]

I agree Ock no doubt HSR should be in line behind Amtrak

In general we are talking about two different pots of federal money, each with varying degrees of availability to Florida.

The HSR federal stimulus money is highly available to FL for the visonary Orlando-Tampa HSR.

So it's not an "either or" proposition. The argument is essentially moot.

[thelakelander]

Actually, Amtrak can tap into the HSR stimulus funds.  They are already running a HSR line in the form of the Northeast's Acela.  The government classifies HSR as going 90mph.  Under this definition, the Amtrak/FEC corridor would also be able to apply for HSR money.

That aside, assuming this line is constructed in the middle of I-4, would it be possible to use the same line for local commuting purposes?  Or is it high speed connections to Disney and OIA or bust?

Btw, now that I think about it, the Amtrak/FEC application is requesting money from the same pot.

[buckethead]

Fedral Funding: Use it or lose it.

Should this be the driving force to building our future?

I like the idea of fast, sexy trains wisking me towards fun destinations. More practical mass transit solutions might not sell as well to a public that votes for candidates they never heard of prior to reviewing a ballot.

All I know about the proposed HSR, I've learned here. Clearly I'm not adequately educated on the issue to make an informed decision, but I am leaning heavily towards a more practical, widespread system, rather than a glamourous amusement ride.

Perhaps the pure sex appeal of a bullet train could attract more tourism, but how many people go to Disney specifically to ride the monorail?

[FayeforCure]

Actually, Amtrak can tap into the HSR stimulus funds.  They are already running a HSR line in the form of the Northeast's Acela.  The government classifies HSR as going 90mph.  Under this definition, the Amtrak/FEC corridor would also be able to apply for HSR money.

That aside, assuming this line is constructed in the middle of I-4, would it be possible to use the same line for local commuting purposes?  Or is it high speed connections to Disney and OIA or bust?

By definition yes, but that was not the intended pupose of the federal HSR stimulus monies.

We should be able to use the same line for slower moving commuter purposes. In Europe they often have "stop trains" and "intercity" trains on the same tracks.

[thelakelander]

By definition yes, but that was not the intended pupose of the federal HSR stimulus monies.

Sure it was. 

It’s important to remember that when Obama and company say high-speed rail, they’re not talking about replicating Japan’s 180-mph bullet trains or France’s 130-mph Train a Grande Vitesse. Right now, high-speed rail in the United States means nothing more than tracks capable of trains running at more than 90 mph. The president conceded our system lags those of other nations but made his ambitions clear.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/04/obama-lays-out/

Its not only for HSR, its also for intercity rail at 90mph or more.  We're the ones putting all the bells and whistles into it.