Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month. Torture Issue Blows Up.

Started by stephendare, April 19, 2009, 11:25:23 AM

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BridgeTroll

#120
August 31, 2009, 01:42:51 PM
I am guessing our mutual friend Ock would find Lincolns suspension of Habeus Corpus equally evil.  Roosevelts internment of Americans for four years was pretty heinous too.  How about his fire bombing of German and Japanese cities?  How about JFKs aborted attempt to invade Cuba? I wonder if Daniel Pearls family cares one iota that Zarqawi was waterboarded?
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#121
August 31, 2009, 01:45:53 PM
Seems you forgot to answer my questions...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#122
August 31, 2009, 01:53:38 PM
Either you think Lincolns abuse of power was a crime or you dont.

Either you think Roosevelt committed massive crimes against fellow Americans or you dont.

Either you think Roosevelt committed war crimes or you dont.

Either you think JFK conducted an illegal war against Cuba or you do not.

These questions seem pretty simple also.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#123
August 31, 2009, 01:57:35 PM
Looks to me like you have painted yourself into the same corner as I.  Welcome!
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#124
August 31, 2009, 02:26:11 PM
Here let me try...

QuoteEither you think Lincolns abuse of power was a crime or you dont.

Either you think Roosevelt committed massive crimes against fellow Americans or you dont.

Either you think Roosevelt committed war crimes or you dont.

Either you think JFK conducted an illegal war against Cuba or you do not.

These questions seem pretty simple also.

Lincolns suspension was probably criminal... but then again he was only trying to save the Union.  I belive in the law... but I also think their are extraordinary circumstances.

Roosevelts internment of Japanese Americans was indeed criminal.  Of course he along with the rest of society was afraid of the Japanese following the Pearl Harbor attack.  I will forgive him as have many who survived those camps.  Can you forgive him Stephen or should we try him in absentia?

Roosevelts and Churchills decision to firebomb German and Japanese civilians would have garnered them the same war crimes trials as Tojo and the nazis had we lost.  Can you forgive them Stephen or should we remove Roosevelts face from the dime?

JFKs decision to recruit Cuban Americans and train them covertly to invade Cuba was clearly illegal.  Sounds kind of like a poorly trained Blackwater to me.  Can you forgive JFK from attempting to protect Americans from what was viewed at the time as a clear and present danger?  Maybe extinguishing his eternal flame would be just punishment.

History is rife with "abuses of power" by the Executive during times of war and duress.  The Union is whole, the Axis was defeated, the Soviets decided it was not a good idea to threaten America from Cuba.  If Gitmo is the price we pay to extinguish al queda... it seems you are not willing to pay it.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#125
August 31, 2009, 02:30:07 PM
It is not about something else... and I answered your question... you simply must read what is written.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#126
August 31, 2009, 02:36:54 PM
What are you?  The Grand Inquisitor?  The Spanish Inquisition? :D  Am I being interrogated?  What do you think I am saying?  You always seem to be the one asking the questions but are unwilling to answer what others ask.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#127
August 31, 2009, 02:52:30 PM
QuoteNo one is above the law.  And these criminals will hopefully be brought to justice and subject to the same mercy that they inflicted on others.

I assume that applies the current administration currently holding detainees at Gitmo.  Perhaps Mr Obama would care to stand trial for his indiscriminate flinging of missiles into Pakistan killing hundreds of civilians.

Goose... meet Gander.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#128
August 31, 2009, 02:55:12 PM
You need to get some sleep... those halucinations keeping you up?
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

#129
August 31, 2009, 03:10:41 PM
 :D I will neither confirm nor deny that I may have halucinated once or twice... ;)  I am quite sure I am not now.  I am merely pointing out that it is disingenuous to claim Bush and company must be prosecuted while the current administration is committing the same ones... other adminitrations did whatever was needed to protect this country...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

NotNow

#130
August 31, 2009, 03:37:22 PM
Sorry I didn't jump in earlier, but some of us are actually employed.  Exactly which law are you talking about StephenDare!?  The United States of America has many, many laws which cover a lot of things, and I am not familiar with most of them.  

Politicians almost ALWAYS support the popular opinion.  See the vote to invade Iraq the second time and then the backpedaling subsequent to the shift in public opinion.  This just reenforces my general opinion of politicians.  Your definition of "torture" is different than mine.  This has become a silly argument.  No amout of cut & paste is going to change anyone's opinion.  Being a smarts$$ is just childish. 
Deo adjuvante non timendum

buckethead

#131
August 31, 2009, 03:47:16 PM
Let us suppose that someone dear to stephen were held captive by a group who had previously displayed a willingness... nay; eagerness and determination to kill as many as it could in preplanned acts of mass violence.

Lucky break! We caught one of the kidnappers!

Let us put Stephendare in charge of extracting information concerning the whereabouts of the group holding his loved one who had announced thier intention to publicly execute said beloved.

Would a bit leway in order to obtain such info be granted?

An answer is not necessary.

NotNow

#132
August 31, 2009, 03:48:10 PM
Blushing handmaiden?  Really?  Now THAT is interesting commentary coming from you!  And where am I to assume that you have located the authority for the USG to get into the health insurance business?  The commerce clause?  There is that "clause" thing again.  Hmmm, commerce, that covers a LOT of things.  Why, the government can go into the banking business as well, right?  And of course life and property insurance is a given.  And the rest of the financial sector as well.  I can find a lot of sad stories of people who don't "have" but "need" and the government should provide it.!  

Let's just not use the document if we can just read whatever we want into it.
Deo adjuvante non timendum

buckethead

#133
August 31, 2009, 03:51:30 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 31, 2009, 03:38:47 PM
strange commentary from the blushing handmaiden of the Constitution that can't see where healthcare is specifically authorized by the Constitution.
:D
I'm no scholar, so you should not be surprised to learn that like notnow, I can't see where the constitution authorizes heathcare. Nor do I see where the constitution authorizes publicly funded heathcare, nor publicly administered healthcare.

To be fair, I don't see where it explicitly prohibits such legeslation from being written.

buckethead

#134
August 31, 2009, 03:54:14 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 31, 2009, 03:50:17 PM
Isnt that the true test of character, buckethead?

Its impossible for the person directly involved to make a decision that is dispassionately just, and we don't allow that to happen.  Its called a conflict of interest and you have to remove yourself from the decision making chain of command.

Putting the person directly affected in charge of the process is the very barbarism that we established our laws to prevent.
I agree with the premise, but I for one would be willing to face the consequences for my actions after I authorized the murder of the family along with the countrymen, and the ancestors of the perpetrator.

Perhaps one among many reasons I am unfit to be placed in a postion of authority.
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