No Cars For JTA Employees Until Mass Transit Works.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock,  Have there been good studies done about how frequent transit needs to be for it to be attractive and convenient.  I know that the ten minute interval for the Riverside trolley works for me and the one hour interval for the regular buses does not.

I think the interval on most subway systems is in the 5-15 minute range which seems to work.

What has been found to be ideal.  I think that this is an important factor in getting mass transit to work.

I think that naturally, shorter headways are better. But what is acceptable depends on what mode of transit you're talking about. If it's long distance commuter rail, the intervals can be longer and still effective (perhaps with shorter headways during rush hours) but for a streetcar to pick me up and drop me off 8 blocks away it's gonna need to come rather frequently for me to use it.

By the way, Ock, I didn't know you were a consultant for the...airlines!! *gasp*

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-08-26-surviving-tarmac-delays_N.htm?csp=34

"It's not a democracy," says Robert Mann, an airline industry consultant in Port Washington, N.Y.

your evil twin? 

Headways on Subways are often in the 5 - 10 minute range, closer during the rush hours. Jacksonville Streetcars operated on 8 minute headways historically. The City complained about the bad service and the Jacksonville Traction Company cut the headways to 5 minutes, but denied a one cent fare increase. Tampa also used the same headway system and the slogan was "ALWAYS A CAR IN SIGHT..."

Kind of makes one reflect doesn't it? Progress? Oh Lord what have we done!

Project Maximus, not to alarm you but my whole life in Transportation started at PIEDMONT AIRLINES at JIA, then farmed out to United, Continental, Dobbs House, and then to Tamiami Trailways in Supervision. TT was a great object lesson in saving a flag ship carrier from the scrap heap of history. In the end we failed to save the National Trailways Bus System, but we did save the franchise operations and interline them with Greyhound, Jefferson, Peter Pan, Carolina Tours, etc...  When I started in JAX which the bus operations called JCV (for some reason known only to God) we had 45 scheduled runs daily, many would have to double or triplehead. When I left "JCV" we were down to 14.

After writing a few books and 1000 articles, you never know where the name might pop up, (but it won't be New York, for this Southron!)

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

8 minutes = "bad" service?   Makes one weep!

[jbroadglide]

My last day to ride the Skyway is today. Its too darn unreliable. One day the wait is 4 minutes. The next day 5. The next day 8. Wednesday it took me almost 22 minutes to ride from Hemming Plaza to Convention Center Station. And that was from the time I actually boarded the train at Hemming until I stepped onto the platform at Convention Center. I could have walked it almost as quickly. So its back to the Baptist garage and 41 bucks a month. But at least I know my car will be there when I walk into the garage and I won't have to wait for it.  Have any of you looked at the parking lots across the street from the Convention center station recently. 5 years ago I rode the Skyway and those lots were almost full. Now you could play a baseball game in them and a long fly ball wouldn't come near a car windshield.

[Ocklawaha]

The Delay causing track error...As this train heads to San Marco or the car barn, it is blocking all 6 tracks, not an acceptable solution in my book.

My last day to ride the Skyway is today. Its too darn unreliable. One day the wait is 4 minutes. The next day 5. The next day 8. Wednesday it took me almost 22 minutes to ride from Hemming Plaza to Convention Center Station. And that was from the time I actually boarded the train at Hemming until I stepped onto the platform at Convention Center. I could have walked it almost as quickly. So its back to the Baptist garage and 41 bucks a month. But at least I know my car will be there when I walk into the garage and I won't have to wait for it.  Have any of you looked at the parking lots across the street from the Convention center station recently. 5 years ago I rode the Skyway and those lots were almost full. Now you could play a baseball game in them and a long fly ball wouldn't come near a car windshield.

This is a great post. It brings up the subject of track layout to the old railroad guy. The two switches where the lines part for the Southbank are WRONG. We could operate (even with expansion) back and forth shuttles a South line:
Atlantic-Hilton-Kings Av-Riverplace-San Marco-Central-BOA-Hyatt-Randolph-Stadium
and a North line:
Jax Terminal-Jefferson-Central-Hemming-Rosa Parks-FCJ-Broad St-Shands-S Line Terminal

The entire system would be shaped roughly like this )( so the trains would NEVER got onto the others route which causes those hold-out delays. Railroadese for having to HOLD OUT (of a station) one train, while another loads or unloads, causing undue delays. For example, add 2 or 3 more trains to Amtrak Jacksonville and the whole AMSHACK will MELT DOWN. Just not designed for that. But the Skyway is, except for that stupid junction.


In my concept, this train inbound from Jacksonville Terminal, would NEVER enter the track in the foreground as you see in this photo, rather prior to the junction, it would shift to the northern most track, to the Skyways Left, to the viewers far right. Trains to and from (stadium)-Central-San Marco etc... would use the track in the foreground ONLY as they passed this point.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock.....are you sure the City did not have a finger in this design? As stupid an error this is makes me wonder just what bovine had their ignorant fingers in the design! I mean this is beyond stupid and no engineer caught it! Oh wait I know.....FDOT was lead on this right?

[Ocklawaha]

Yes, FDOT, but since UMTA (the FTA of today) came up with the whole scheme and then the FTA told CBS and ABC "We never had anything to do with Jacksonville..." I think we should blame Washington D.C..

Steve Arrington, of JTA chief engineering, who once tilted windmills with me is too nice a guy to lay this on. Psst. He's sharp too!

In honesty consider that the system they were planning was NEVER built and what we have are just the bones of what was susposed to be a much farther reaching railroad. This will make an interesting subject for another JTA-MJ meeting.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

JTA budget approved.  However, there were Stjr-style questions asked by Richard Clark.

Blaylock was also grilled on the Skyway, which costs JTA over $7 million annually to operate. Council President Richard Clark said his office faces the Hemming Plaza Skyway station and he maintains ridership is low.

“I am trying to figure out the end game with the Skyway,” said Clark. “Why do we continue to operate this?”

Blaylock defended the system by saying it, as well as the Kings Avenue parking garage, were built ahead of their time.

“There were projections of 200,000 workers Downtown that never occurred,” said Blaylock, adding the idea now is to integrate the Skyway into a transportation system that sees bus routes into Downtown terminate at Skyway stations. He also thinks one day the Skyway will be beneficial. “I am crazy enough to believe Downtown will come back strong.”

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=528901

[braeburn]

My last day to ride the Skyway is today. Its too darn unreliable. One day the wait is 4 minutes. The next day 5. The next day 8. Wednesday it took me almost 22 minutes to ride from Hemming Plaza to Convention Center Station. And that was from the time I actually boarded the train at Hemming until I stepped onto the platform at Convention Center. I could have walked it almost as quickly. So its back to the Baptist garage and 41 bucks a month. But at least I know my car will be there when I walk into the garage and I won't have to wait for it.  Have any of you looked at the parking lots across the street from the Convention center station recently. 5 years ago I rode the Skyway and those lots were almost full. Now you could play a baseball game in them and a long fly ball wouldn't come near a car windshield.

I have been having the same experience with regards to the Skyway. It seems that each week it becomes less and less reliable. I wonder what percentage of ridership they are losing due to the problems and its current condition?

One cannot win when it comes to transportation or commute in this city. The Skyway sucks. The bus system needs a major overhaul, and the traffic everywhere else, commute or not, is diabolical...

[stjr]

Ock:

This is a great post. It brings up the subject of track layout to the old railroad guy. The two switches where the lines part for the Southbank are WRONG.

Ock, I love your sincerity but even you regularly admit an ever increasing list of issues with the $ky-high-way as our discussion continues.  How much to rip up these switches and rebuild them to your design?  The fact is the more we learn about the $ky-high-way, the more flaws we find in it.  Just more reasons to question anyone's defense of it or advocacy to expand it.

I also raised the issue about service frequency on the $ky-high-way and how it compares to street cars.  If street cars can run every 5 minutes, what's the best one could hope for the $ky-high-way?  Don't forget the limits caused by issues such as the switches as presently configured.

Riders are giving up on the $ky-high-way because it can't be reliably operated, even as it exists.  Imagine the added chaos of running a larger, expanded system.

You know, there is something noble about recycling useless concrete!

[stjr]

JTA budget approved.  However, there were Stjr-style questions asked by Richard Clark.

Blaylock was also grilled on the Skyway, which costs JTA over $7 million annually to operate. Council President Richard Clark said his office faces the Hemming Plaza Skyway station and he maintains ridership is low.

“I am trying to figure out the end game with the Skyway,” said Clark. “Why do we continue to operate this?”

Well, if this is correct, I will have to finally give Clark his due on something budget related.  Now, will he act on it.  Imagine what  $7 million  would mean to the City budget right now if JTA closed the $ky-high-way and forwarded this money to the COJ.  A lot more than a 1,000 people (500 if they are round trippers) could be served and the community would be a lot better off.  I hope the City Council is paying attention here.

Blaylock defended the system by saying it, as well as the Kings Avenue parking garage, were built ahead of their time.

“There were projections of 200,000 workers Downtown that never occurred,” said Blaylock, adding the idea now is to integrate the Skyway into a transportation system that sees bus routes into Downtown terminate at Skyway stations. He also thinks one day the Skyway will be beneficial. “I am crazy enough to believe Downtown will come back strong.”
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=528901

[/quote]


Blaylock is grabbing at straws with a nebulous argument often made over the last 25 to 30 years to get the $ky-high-way built and expanded.  200,000 workers downtown?  That's ridiculous.  I would guess that's some 5 to 10 times current levels depending on how you measure.  Regardless, it is way beyond reasonable to expect this to become reality before the $ky-high-way is a mere relic.  Come on, how stupid are we?

If it was built "ahead of its time" then it's like 100 years ahead if there is even an "ahead" in the future.  The time is now and the foreseeable future and there is no purpose, use, or justification for keeping the $ky-high-way, especially at $7 million a year that could go to far superior mass transit alternatives and/or greater City needs.

Tying the $ky-high-way to the ends of bus routes?  Where is the common sense?  Does anyone think the $ky-high-way could keep up with dozens or more bus routes feeding it so people can travel a few extra blocks?  The inability to do this is so conspicuous that I am astounded that I have to even point it out.

[stjr]

Its not that it cant be reliably operated, its that it isnt being reliably operated.

Plus the bridge.

Stephen, if JTA and their crew are our supposed "experts", then I have to assume IT IS being operated as reliably as humanly possible.   If JTA, our "experts", can't run it, then why should anyone trust JTA to "expertly" evaluate it in any other forum?  Who are the "experts"? ... Who can we trust and rely on?  I don't see anyone on the horizon.  Another point for dumping it.

The bridge?  We aleady have agreement that if it was desired, street cars could cross the river on an existing bridge.  Certainly not a reason to for keeping the $ky-high-way in business.

[stjr]

Im not going to argue with you on this one, STJR.  You have your opinion, and you are entitled to it, and I respect and appreciate your point of view.

We obviously all agree that the Transit authority needs reform.

Thanks for your courtesies.  I feel I have to work extra hard to compensate for the JTA propaganda machine on this as I don't have their resources to compete otherwise.  All I have is a strong desire to see Jax make the right decisions for its future and the future of its citizens coupled with common sense, history, and the quality and validity of my points.
 
I hope you and others understand.

[CS Foltz]

It is puzzling to me that it would cost 7 Million dollars to operate the $kyway. The design is flawed (switching) and the ridership is low due to scheduling issue's......save some money and shut it down! Finance committee dropped the ball on this one but maybe when the Budget goes before the Council ....it might get removed!

[Ocklawaha]

The planners left off many of the Skyways potential benefits, which has left the little system strung up on the "Gallo's Pole".

IMAGE: This was a golden opportunity to showcase something in Jacksonville that is found in only 3 other major US cities... MONORAIL. Monorail to anyone NOT connected with the rail or transportation industry always seems to be the "Future of ground travel." Never mind that monorails are as old as railroads themselves (as we know them) and if they WERE the future, CSX, FEC and NS would be monorails from the 1800's forward. Never the less, "EVERYBODY," seems to know or dream the monorail dream, perhaps its still fueled by Disneyland? So here was a chance to send the Skyway over I-95 in the Southbank, and possible points over 95 to Durkeeville and/or Shand's. With millions of people moving up and down the east coast on that highway, every single one of them having seen the elephant, would come away from Jacksonville, thinking... TOMORROWLAND! I'm not sure $7 Million a year could buy that type of PR?

Another missed opportunity is the Stadium, Arena, Fairgrounds, Baseball grounds, Metropolitan Park, and a future A.P. Randolph entertainment district. This area tied to downtown via the Skyway could wipe away the miles long traffic lines to get into and out of the venues. So in true Jacksonville style, we didn't build it there!

Failure to connect with a mixed traffic base is another strike out. Just how UMTA, FDOT and JTA reached their numbers for ridership seems a wild mystery. How many people do you know each day that must travel from the Omni to City Hall? From Jacksonville Terminal to FCJ (Rosa Parks)? From Prudential to and empty field at Jefferson? There is NO LOGICAL reason the segments we have up and running will ever carry more then a handful of passengers.



This leaves the little train that couldn't in a permanent lurch. If we take it down, by the rules of the FTA and USDOT we will have to repay every dime of the cost. By Union Contracts, we would have to "protect" some 20 m/l employees with relocation, severance benefits, retirement etc... NOT CHEAP. Last but not least, cities that cut and run from projects funded by Uncle Sam are severely treated when they come up for other transportation grants.

JTA and the COJ was sold a bill of goods based on the "facts" of the 1970's-early 80's era. Anyone old enough remembers that time like this, if you asked your High School counselors about a railroad/LRT/streetcar career they would tell you to, "Stop being STUPID! There won't be ANY railroads by 2000..." So shazam, who was the Stupid One? Like every other city of the time, we bought into the rubber tire people mover to go with our rubber tire buses, then converted it to a rubber tire monorail. We allowed Amtrak to escape to an Amshack in the far NW corner of the city, converted a natural transportation hub (for an entire state) into a seldom useful 1/2 of a convention center, and waited for passengers... We're still waiting...



There are two directions to go on this issue, the first is do a true multi-modal study in the urban core, and try and figure out what factors are missing (like people) and how to reach those markets with the Skyway, at a minimum of expense. There are several positives in this, we wouldn't have to build any more maintenance facilities, probably wouldn't have to add a single employee, and frankly could operate much of it on single track.
Generators such as Baptist Medical Center, a mere parking lot and a block out of reach in a tropical downpour. The Blue Cross Area is good, but we need to reach to the edge of residential for it to work, so lets assume that to be near 5-points. The same is true of Shand's, Stadium, and San Marco at Atlantic. At this point we would have a true network that blends the transportation requirements like any other logical world system. Attractors, Producers, residential, commercial, recreation, employment, all along a single string. No matter how good we could make it, it is not going to make money any more then Atlantic Blvd, or Roosevelt Blvd, do.

The other direction is what friend stjr is promoting, stop, close it down, tear down the entire project, and tell ABC and CBS that "We never had anything to do with the Jacksonville Skyway..." (the same lie being spun out of the FTA in Washington). The cost of removal would come close to the cost of the short expansions proposed above, but then we would still have an annual budget item to support; protected employees. Once it's gone, we have no chance to recover any benefit, real or imagined from this project. Also remember it could black-list us with the FTA for a long, long, time.

Consider the options and make a decision, the worst thing we can do is allow it to continue to stumble along, poorly maintained, with long or impossible headways. In short, DO SOMETHING!

Hey, and while we're at it, SOMEBODY get that damn convention center out of Jacksonville Terminal, and bring Amtrak home!


No cross streets, no stop lights, no speed patrols, no problem... Our Skyway.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock....I am just as frustrated as everyone else! Design flaw not withstanding......$kyway had potential and just as much being done at City Hall......WASTED! A monorail system properly designed would have been a boon to downtown if the silly thing went somewhere! It goes from nowhere to nowhere right now and I don't see much being done to expand it.....just talk about it.....so lets either do something about it or pull its plug! If the funding is pulled then that's 7 Million back in the kitty.....if it is expanded then Federal Funds need to be involved because the City is handcuffed financially.....the system was just put out there and that's all that was done! Once again I keep coming back to no vision.....no plan ....and no sense!