No Cars For JTA Employees Until Mass Transit Works.

[DeadGirlsDontDance]

I think all city employees and their immediate family should not be allowed to operate a vehicle. And no taxis, either. Walk and/or ride the bus, like poor folks.

Really?  ALL city employees?  Hmm... last I checked, quite a few of them don't make over $28,000 a year, but of course those employees don't make the news. Nor do they have anything to do with JTA or roadway design.

Yes. ALL city employees. When every single person who works for the city starts showing up an hour late on a regular basis, because the bus service sucks, maybe the city will improve the damn bus service.

[coredumped]

Cost aside, it would be nice if they could see where their buses, skyway, etc were (gps). This would let them know that no bus has visited stop X in 55 minutes and it's a 30 minute route.
Or, do they already have that and not care? I'm sure they must with the skyway.

[DeadGirlsDontDance]

Well, JEA, there are some of us who have seen effective, convenient mass transit systems in other cities and other countries and HATE having to take our cars everywhere and find a place to park them.  There are more of us everyday and we are getting tired of your once-an-hour, slow service.

Thank you, Dog Walker. I spent a few days in San Diego, with no car, and I could get anywhere I wanted to go, and never waited more than 15 minutes for a bus.

Oh, and the buses were packed, and not just with poor people who couldn't afford a car, or old people who lost their driver's license for crappy eyesight and reflexes, they were full of regular people taking the bus because it was cheap and convenient.

[CS Foltz]

Solution is simple.....allow no cars at all downtown. Outlying parking area's but no auto's allowed in the inner core. That may play hell with the parking violations but would clear up downtown real quick! Just legislate 4 or 6 square blocks no auto's allowed!

[Dog Walker]

There are a number of cities that have created "no autos" zones and streets in their downtowns.  I know of Tampa and Denver in this country.  Does anyone have any information about how successful these closed streets have been?  I think that they are usually entertainment districts.

[Lunican]

Pedestrian Malls are usually not successful, especially in small or medium size cities.

Here is a story about Raleigh's removal of their pedestrian mall.
Learning from Raleigh, NC: Fayetteville Street Renaissance

[CS Foltz]

Well I know that Tampa's is an entertainment district but would have to ask......why must it be an entertainment district? It would seem to me that a business or government district should about the same. Point is......no vehicles! People could move on the streets without getting run over and would do wonders for downtown congestion!

[Ocklawaha]

This seems like a great idea on the surface, however as Lunican has pointed out, it has failed over and over again. It must go deep into the psychology of Americans, as the "land of the free," we all have a bit of that rebel spirit in us. You can ask an American, to save or feed your whole damn nation, but don't you DARE tell us to do it. Then again, if it is market driven, (St. George Street, St. Augustine) we're all over it and clawing at eachother to get there first.

The best medium for accomplishing a much more walkable downtown without driving out old or potential new heavy weight company's would be careful restructuring. Surrender lanes to buses and streetcars, expand the Skyway and connect it to adjacent buildings. Send new Skyway lines THROUGH future office and residential towers, Al La Disney Monorail. Narrow streets and expand pedestrian spaces. Wipe out parking meters and attach those fees to all of the downtown parking lots and garages. Don't require new office towers to build 600 car garages. Use street furniture, shrubs, trees, benches, fountains etc. to remove pedestrians from auto and bus traffic. Go to electric buses downtown, either hybrid (which cost a fortune) or spend a dime on overhead and purchase trolley bus components. Use a carrot and stick method for the homeless, a smelly woman asleep in the library restroom gets her butt hauled out, a smelly woman reading keyboarding 101 gets a break. Have a place for them to go that is more then a warehouse for night crawlers, and doesn't empty it's contents on the street at 5 am. Streetcars in broad 20' - 25' Parkways, where the track is in a median and grass, flowers and shrubs are planted in and alongside the tracks. We could even have some wildflower, butterfly blocks in the middle of the streetcar tracks...and we DON'T have to mow them.

Just tossing out a few, TheLakelander? Lunican? Stephendare? Steve? Anyone care to pile on? Nothing will draw the American, the tourist, and the industrialist, faster then a clean and amazingly attractive downtown, with decent transit options. There is certainly no need to punish JTA employees for bad transit on a 50 year starvation diet.

OCKLAWAHA

[buckethead]

I just read the full thread, after voting no.

I don't share Ocks depth of knowledge but I can't see arbitrarily forcing city employees to be subjected to riding woefully inadequate bus lines in an automotive city.

I understand the enthusiasm for mass transit, and it is growing on me as I continue to read this forum.

Years ago I had to get from Oak and Margaret to Atlantic Blvd right at the merger of Arlington expswy. I took BH1 via skateboard from riverside. It took about 2 hours each way. By car, 15 or 20 minutes. Rainy days were tougher. Had to transfer:(.

Since I rarely use public transportation other than JIA, perhaps I don't get a vote. If it was useable, perhaps I would.

BTW, JIA (JAX) is prhaps my favorite airport in the country: New, clean, easy to use and it's like your own private airport compared to the majority of other airports.

I'd ride JTA busses rather than fly through Hartsfield.

[CS Foltz]

Bucket head I agree having been on both! Somehow I don't see tearing up downtown for a trolley system but maybe a hybrid bus might be the answer for downtown usage. Not sure and need to see just what the proposals are regarding the entire mass transit concept. I am sure there has to be some answer that would carry over into the next decade that would encourage usage......know for sure we need to get ready and soon!

[Dog Walker]

Downtown Toronto, Canada has a network of underground passageways connecting most of the buildings.  Small shops and cafes have grown up at the intersections and it is always full of people moving around.  Minneapolis, Minnesota has a network of second floor covered walkways connecting many of the major buildings in its downtown.  The second floors of the building have become food courts and shopping areas.  You do not want to go outside in Minneapolis in February so there is this whole alternative way for pedestrians to get around.

Perhaps a series of covered, elevated walkways around Hemming Plaza connecting all of the government buildings and out to the Federal and Country Courthouses would start a trend and then private building owners would want their building connected to the network as well.  August in Jacksonville is just as unfriendly to pedestrians as Minneapolis in February.

[exnewsman]

I don't share Ocks depth of knowledge but I can't see arbitrarily forcing city employees to be subjected to riding woefully inadequate bus lines in an automotive city.

Just to clarify... JTA has no city employees. They are an independant state agency and not a division of COJ.

[Ocklawaha]

Bucket head I agree having been on both! Somehow I don't see tearing up downtown for a trolley system but maybe a hybrid bus might be the answer for downtown usage. Not sure and need to see just what the proposals are regarding the entire mass transit concept. I am sure there has to be some answer that would carry over into the next decade that would encourage usage......know for sure we need to get ready and soon!

It can be a chicken or egg proposition, but one in which both need to arrive at the same time. Tearing up downtown would NOT occur to convert the current asinine, amusement park, PCT TROLLEYS, into REAL trolley buses. Trolley buses attract a larger ridership base for perhaps the same reason that streetcars attract an even larger ridership. Bottom line, there is security in KNOWING where the bus or streetcar is going and following overhead wires and/or in ground rails is a fantastic way to achieve these goals. Houston has even gone to the extra step of placing the little square reflector markers (just like the ones on the center lines of OUR roadways, only with LED lighting in them. The lights create a trail at night making both bus and rail easy to follow.

If we rely solely on buses, and BRT buses, we shoot ourselves in the foot, never gaining true rapid transit, in spite of the hype. An example can be found in the Federal Transportation Administration facts, buses running on exclusive BRT busways account for only 7% of all TOD or TAD (Transit oriented or adjacent development). Even Clevelands highly touted Euclid BRT corridor, which claims to have broken development records is not seeing private development. Their "record breaking" TOD'S are all social and public administration buildings, except for ONE MC Donald's restaurant. Based on that concept pogo sticks could be considered as attracting TOD'S as long of the City or State built a building on the pogo stick sidewalk.

We need REAL development downtown, development with a vision for mass transit. As a city we should be chasing the 93% of TOD'S generated by various modes of rail, as well as the 7% BRT. Streetcars are well proved development machines, with almost every system built, modern or heritage, accounting for at least a BILLION dollars in new office and residential.

How would true mass transit be built? Overhead for trolley buses could be installed by closing a couple of blocks of curbside lanes, while poles and line crews string the wire. Streetcar electric would follow the same pattern. Most Streetcar systems built today use a 60 day/six blocks schedule for street closures. The two south extensions of the Skyway could be done today without disturbing much of anything, since both proposed routes (Brooklyn and San Marco) are off-road.

BRT on HOV lanes with deluxe stops would be cheaper to build, but the Operations and Maintenance on BRT buses, much less the nearly Million dollar a copy hybrids, are much higher then and form of Light Rail.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

Ock,  Have there been good studies done about how frequent transit needs to be for it to be attractive and convenient.  I know that the ten minute interval for the Riverside trolley works for me and the one hour interval for the regular buses does not.

I think the interval on most subway systems is in the 5-15 minute range which seems to work.

What has been found to be ideal.  I think that this is an important factor in getting mass transit to work.

[ProjectMaximus]

Ock,  Have there been good studies done about how frequent transit needs to be for it to be attractive and convenient.  I know that the ten minute interval for the Riverside trolley works for me and the one hour interval for the regular buses does not.

I think the interval on most subway systems is in the 5-15 minute range which seems to work.

What has been found to be ideal.  I think that this is an important factor in getting mass transit to work.

I think that naturally, shorter headways are better. But what is acceptable depends on what mode of transit you're talking about. If it's long distance commuter rail, the intervals can be longer and still effective (perhaps with shorter headways during rush hours) but for a streetcar to pick me up and drop me off 8 blocks away it's gonna need to come rather frequently for me to use it.

By the way, Ock, I didnt know you were a consultant for the...airlines!! *gasp*

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-08-26-surviving-tarmac-delays_N.htm?csp=34

"It's not a democracy," says Robert Mann, an airline industry consultant in Port Washington, N.Y.

your evil twin?