Money Raising Idea for JTA

[Charles Hunter]

Darn right ... and if the Libraries and Schools can't pay for themselves - shut them down too!!!!


please note - that is sarcasm

[stjr]

Its unfinished, CSFoltz, and unuseful in its unfinished condition.

I do think that some sort of light rail would have been a better investment, but water under the bridge.

No public transportation pays for itself though.  Thats why governments build them.  People don't generally ask whether or not Beaver street or Main street is paying for itself. 

Stephen, two comments.  The $ky-high-way IS a complete system as currently built - it is not "unfinished".  Expansion ideas are just that, EXPANSIONS.  This is part of the continuing misunderstandings about how we got to where we are and why estimates of the benefits of an expansion are highly suspect.

Second, I don't expect any transit system to make money but I do expect us to choose modes that give us the biggest bang for the buck.  The $ky-high-way doesn't come close and never will.  That's why it's time to move on with something far better and cut our losses.  The $ky-high-way is kind of like the Viet Nam war of Jax mass transit - decision makers have so much invested they have a hard time calling it quits in the face of declining benefits to continue.  Pride is a hard thing to swallow.

[stjr]

Stephen, the below is from one of at least two features on the $ky-high-way by ABC News (which I have posted multiple times on MJ threads elsewhere on the $ky-high-way).

Note that the story makes it clear the system was then COMPLETED with the second installment in 2000.   In quotes by both your JTA friend, Miles Francis, and JTA's Steve Arrington, it shows NO mention or discussion of any need or desire for expansions to meet traffic projections used for what exists now.  The only caveats were about the economy, fuel prices, and parking (sound familiar?).  And, the need for another 20 to 30 years!!! (Talk about changing the rules during the game.)

Well, now it's at least another 10 years since its "completion" and things have only gotten worse, even after following one of the best economic expansion in generations.

So, sorry Stephen, with mutual respects, I stand by my story.

$200 Million Ride to Nowhere
Almost No One Is Riding $200 Million Skyway
By Charles Herman
J A C K S O N V I L L E, Fla., July 29


The 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center, the Skyway makes eight stops throughout the northeastern Florida city that is split in two by the St. John's River.

The only problem: hardly anyone rides it.

"It's strictly a waste of money from beginning to end," decried longtime Jacksonville critic Marvin Edwards. He blames the builder and supporter of the Skyway, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA).

"They lied about ridership projections," explained Edwards. "They said 56,000 a day at first, then dropped that to 30,000, then last it was 18,000 to 19,000."

Currently, the Skyway sees 3,000 riders per day who pay 35 cents a trip. In fiscal 2001, the Skyway brought in $513,694 in revenue but its expenses were $3.5 million.

Fights for Funding

The Skyway was first proposed back in 1971. It took more than a decade before the funding  federal, state and local  could be secured to start construction. At the time, the goal was mainly for development so the Skyway to connect the downtown core with parking facilities away from downtown.

The Jacksonville Skyway was part of three demonstration projects to see if "people-mover" systems could stimulate business expansion in downtown centers. Detroit and Miami received federal funds for similar projects.

Some officials within the Department of Transportation's Federal Transit Authority questioned the ridership projections for the Jacksonville Skyway.

In an interview with ABCNEWS' John Martin in 1994, Federal Transit Administration official Gordon Linton said, "We and this department, this administration and previous administrations, have not supported it."

Nevertheless, Congress eventually provided more than half the funds for the $182 million Skyway.

In 1987 construction began on the first 0.7-mile portion of the system.

"It was mainly for political reasons, not transportation reasons," explained former Rep. Bob Carr, who chaired the committee that approved funding for transportation projects in the early 1990s. "Like so many projects, they get a camel's nose under the tent and then it gets very very difficult to stop them."

Few Riders From the Start

In 1989 the first section was completed and opened to the public. Jacksonville's transit leaders projected more than 10,000 people would ride the Skyway a day on this 0.7-mile starter section.

Instead, only 1,200 rode the Skyway.

In 1993 Transit Authority member Miles Francis defended the system to ABCNEWS. "Until this thing is finished, there's no way to measure its performance or its potential."

Now it's finished and the Jacksonville Transit Authority is still waiting for the riders to come.

Open for Business

In November 2000, the complete Skyway opened to the public. Nearly two years later, with ridership at an average of 3,000 a day, the Skyway has not met even the projections for the starter section.

"No one will argue with the fact that ridership is not where we would like it to be," admitted Steve Arrington, director of engineering with the Jacksonville Transit Authority. He says the lack of riders is attributed to economic recessions in downtown Jacksonville in the early 1990s that led to a decrease in development in the area.

"Any number of things predicted to occur that didn't occur development-wise has an effect," he added. "Fuel prices, parking prices."

Arrington still believes in the Skyway and expects to reach its ridership goals. "You don't build a system like this or a roadway for the next four years," said Arrington. "You try to build it for the next 20 to 30 years."

Riding an empty car from one station to another, critic Edwards disagreed. "This really is a public rip-off and a total waste of money that could have gone for something not quite as fancy, but a lot more practical."

See: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130201&page=1  

[CS Foltz]

The potential is there, just not enough of it! A Skyway system would not be as good as light rail or a trolley system but if it were actually connecting something to somewhere .......would sure help alot! Not sure if extending beyond its finished current length is feasible or prudent!

[Ocklawaha]

Frankly,it is only finished in that what we have on the ground is completed and there are no usused segments. So it's finished to the expectations of those who know it for what they see today. Both Stephendare and Myself, remember seeing the whole plan which if memory serves me is about 8 miles long.

We just had an informal meeting with Steve Arrington, Chief Engineer for JTA (and the Skyway's "daddy"). He plans to give us photos or copies of the planned system as it was laid out.

OCKLAWAHA

[Jason]

I would love to see those plans!

[tufsu1]

to be fair Stephen, most people in the country had no idea what light rail was in the early  1980's....everyone was thinking that mass transit meant heavy rail like BART, and the similar MARTA, MTA in Baltimnore, and Miami-Dade systems.

As for trolleys, their revolution didn't start until about 15 years ago.

But in the late 70's and early 80's lots of cities were exploring downtown people mover systems....and the Feds provided experimental grants to places like Jax, Morgantown, WV, Detroit, Miami, and others.

[Ocklawaha]

to be fair Stephen, most people in the country had no idea what light rail was in the Early 1980's....everyone was thinking that mass transit meant heavy rail like BART, and the similar MARTA, MTA in Baltimnore, and Miami-Dade systems.

As for trolleys, their revolution didn't start until about 15 years ago.

But in the late 70's and early 80's lots of cities were exploring downtown people mover systems....and the Feds provided experimental grants to places like Jax, Morgantown, WV, Detroit, Miami, and others.

What is this in reference to?  Its all true of course. 
Here in Jax, we are lucky enough to have the people on both sides of the old argument actually involved in the conversation.

Steve Arrington and Ock were the leaders of the opposing transportation based advocacy groups.

I think it was a mistake in politics more than anything.  If Ock and them hadn't have shared beds with a group of people that were literally against ALL taxes, its probable that they would have seen the fruition of light rail and trolleys (which is what Ock was actually counter proposing back then).  All transportation projects require spending money.  But by the time it was over, the neanderthalers had taken over Ock's side of the argument.

For them it wasn't a choice between a good and a bad option for mass transit.  It was between mass transit vs. no mass transit.

But its water under the bridge now.

We laid out a plan for a downtown streetcar with growth ability to the Northside, Riverside/Ortega, Westside and maybe Southside. Several City Councilmen were supportive as was RAP and Downtown Development Authority. We would have been the FIRST CITY to have built a hybrid - heritage streetcar+transit system. We didn't even have to make a choice of Skyway or Streetcar as the Streetcar route was the same as what is proposed today. JCCI invited us to meetings where we laid out the plans, medians, old railroad grades (shipyard to metropolitan park had a rail line back then) etc. After meeting with us in their recommendations to the city, they stated "SINCE STREETCARS ARE SLOW AND MUST COMPETE WITH AUTOMOBILES FOR SPACE WE REJECT THIS IDEA..." Of course they had to know better, but the twist they announced to the news and press was like we were planning on blocking up the roadways. NO WHERE did we ever mention competing with automobiles, this was spun to kill it. The mayor (Jake Godbold) was somehow at the bottom of all of this and said that if we went for the streetcars the UMTA would not fund our Skyway. We countered that the streetcars were historical and the Skyway was strictly downtown transport. The city would then spin what we said into old, historical road blocks, moving at 2 MPH, making a mess of the city. It was obvious that they were stone walling any attempt at rail as impractical, so I explained the "practical Skyway" to the press and the war was on!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

I'm really not sure, at the bottom of a file drawer somewhere maybe, but a dozen moves and several countries later? I just don't know. I will make it a point to look, got to understand I have been a rabid Jacksonville Booster my whole life and this was a very disappointing experience. Reality Check, the City you have spent your life boosting into the stratosphere is full of Neanderthals. This was really so easy a cave man could do it, but we hadn't evolved that far.

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OCKLAWAHA