JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[tufsu1]

San Marco is probably best served by a skyway extension and circulator transit (mini-bus, rubber tire trolley, etc.)

[braeburn]

It took me forever and a day to convince a good friend of mine to ride the Skyway with me. I used to use it a lot - living on Ashley St., the Hemming Plaza Skyway is only what, 2 blocks away? I used it frequently to ride from there to across the river to the Southbank where I could hit up Charthouse, or that Wine Bar or walk 2 more blocks to BB's and whatnot. Then just like tradition I'd go to Friendship Park and enjoy the skyline and a recap of the evening.

This last time was so embarassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

First of all there were people just busting through the Handicapped access door, which seemed to be broken and weren't ashamed at all to let everyone see that they were breaking into the thing without paying.

Second, the escalator had trash all over it and in the lobby area up top. It was a very uncomfortable 10+ minute wait. The trains are all screwed up and discombobulated, and we had to switch cars twice just to hopefully TRY to get across the water. A fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

Third, the Riverplace Skyway was closed down due to fire, so we had to go to the Kings Avenue station, which was OK but I didn't exactly look like the expert on the system anymore 

Finally, after finding out about the Wine Bar being closed, we went to get BACK on the train, only to find out that the hours of operation had changed, and the Skyway was CLOSED!! 9pm is a joke - seriously, how can you enjoy wine and finger foods in the evening, and in the back of your mind feel like you have to "rush" to get back onto the train before it gets dark?? We ended up walking back over to the Northbank via the Main St. bridge, only to end up at the Landing, once again, on our night where we wanted to try something "different" 

I really would like to work at Baptist Hospital as soon as I get a couple other nursing classes under my belt, but I wouldn't trust the Skyway system, for example, to be able to fully rely on it to take me to the Southbank from Hemming Park for my JOB!!

So, to me, not only did my friend completely hate the Skyway, and it being her first time on it left a very poor impression, but I also was thoroughly dissapointed, because to me, the Skyway meant that even though I live all the way out on Ashley St., I still felt as if I was still somehow connected to the rest of the City.

I'm tempted to bring my own broom and dustpan and clean the shithole myself.

[stjr]

This last time was so embarrassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

Imagine how much more money they would lose if they spent what it takes to really keep up the place!

A fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

I had forgotten this point until you mentioned it.  It seems to me the entire system had to be overhauled when they extended it over the river because new cars and equipment were needed due to switching vendors for the addition at that time.  If they need to do that again in the future, it would be almost like starting all over again.  Ock or Lake, what's up with this?

[civil42806]

It took me forever and a day to convince a good friend of mine to ride the Skyway with me. I used to use it a lot - living on Ashley St., the Hemming Plaza Skyway is only what, 2 blocks away? I used it frequently to ride from there to across the river to the Southbank where I could hit up Charthouse, or that Wine Bar or walk 2 more blocks to BB's and whatnot. Then just like tradition I'd go to Friendship Park and enjoy the skyline and a recap of the evening.

This last time was so embarassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

First of all there were people just busting through the Handicapped access door, which seemed to be broken and weren't ashamed at all to let everyone see that they were breaking into the thing without paying.

Second, the escalator had trash all over it and in the lobby area up top. It was a very uncomfortable 10+ minute wait. The trains are all screwed up and discombobulated, and we had to switch cars twice just to hopefully TRY to get across the water. A fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

Third, the Riverplace Skyway was closed down due to fire, so we had to go to the Kings Avenue station, which was OK but I didn't exactly look like the expert on the system anymore 

Finally, after finding out about the Wine Bar being closed, we went to get BACK on the train, only to find out that the hours of operation had changed, and the Skyway was CLOSED!! 9pm is a joke - seriously, how can you enjoy wine and finger foods in the evening, and in the back of your mind feel like you have to "rush" to get back onto the train before it gets dark?? We ended up walking back over to the Northbank via the Main St. bridge, only to end up at the Landing, once again, on our night where we wanted to try something "different" 

I really would like to work at Baptist Hospital as soon as I get a couple other nursing classes under my belt, but I wouldn't trust the Skyway system, for example, to be able to fully rely on it to take me to the Southbank from Hemming Park for my JOB!!

So, to me, not only did my friend completely hate the Skyway, and it being her first time on it left a very poor impression, but I also was thoroughly dissapointed, because to me, the Skyway meant that even though I live all the way out on Ashley St., I still felt as if I was still somehow connected to the rest of the City.

I'm tempted to bring my own broom and dustpan and clean the shithole myself.

But if its extended to the gator bowl and riverside everything will become magical!!!!

[braeburn]

Like I said, there are three major reasons to me why I am thoroughly dissapointed:

1) I wouldn't ever be able to successfully rely on it, whether for "work or leisure" as the damn signs in these cars say.

2) Living and going to school in the NW part of the city, where the FCCJ transit and Hemming Plaza transit are both just two blocks from my condo, it creates a sense of connection to the city even though you are "off the beaten path" so-to-speak. What downtown resident wants to see something like that go straight to hell?

3) The fact that it can't even be taken care of NOW in its current state is appalling - it would be absolutely impossible to convince anyone, let alone a majority, that this "thing" up in the air actually "works" or will begin to work.

The carebear hours for this system are 6 AM - 9 PM during the week, Noon to 7 PM on Saturdays, and closed on Sundays, with the exception of "Special Event Service Only." These hours are very odd and NOT user-friendly to take advantage of everything the city offers.

On top of that, you have to pray that the thing doesn't screw up and make you late for work, or even worse, cause you to miss the last bus leaving the transit station to get your butt home safely that day.

The whole thing is just one big cocktease.

[thelakelander]

^Expect things to get worse.  JTA plans to eliminate Saturday service, making it less user friendly.

[braeburn]

^^ That's what I'm afraid of.

[Ocklawaha]

This last time was so embarrassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

Imagine how much more money they would lose if they spent what it takes to really keep up the place!

A fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

I had forgotten this point until you mentioned it.  It seems to me the entire system had to be overhauled when they extended it over the river because new cars and equipment were needed due to switching vendors for the addition at that time.  If they need to do that again in the future, it would be almost like starting all over again.  Ock or Lake, what's up with this?

The Skyway is pretty filthy, the elevators smell like baked on urine, a comfortable feeling for the mothers with a baby in the stroller. A solution might be to lease out station space for vendors, keeping the area clean would be a large chunk of the lease.

Why JTA went to pure monorail is something of a mystery. Perhaps they got caught up in the monorail myths, everyone
"knows" that someday monorails will subplant CSX, NS and FEC, and account for 99% of America's travel needs. HA! The damned things have been around even longer then the first commercial rail lines. Laying monorail beams over the whole project dumped another huge chunk of change into the "Skyway Costs". The sad part is they have continued to build the people mover highway, even though all they need is a single beamway. The river crossing is one of the few places where they didn't build a double system. That being the case, one would correctly surmise that we have wasted a ton of money on concrete, thus the true costs have never been reflected.

As for the equipment, NOTHING could be farther from the truth. WE OWN THE RIGHTS TO THESE CARS, and the builder Bombardier is not only alive, they are arguably the worlds leading transit equipment manufacturer. Favors? Does anyone else remember the big building in the Baymeadows area with the words "BOMBARDIER?" It looks like the ship has left the pier leaving us to flounder around looking for excuses as to WHY was it so expensive?  Fare increase, on a system that should be free. Bad maintenance, somebody call a janitor. Cutting weekend service and wiping out late nights is more a case of a City or agency worried about budget more then mobility.

OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

I always tell people if Five Points had a Skyway Station I would still be living in Jacksonville FL right now!! To me rail transit is an amenity. Just like Golf courses and NFL Football, cities do not really NEED them, but it is great to have them. I actually found this site by typing "Riverside Skyway Station" in Google and this site was like the 3rd or 4th link. I know everyone on here has there interest and things they like to do. Me personally I am a big NFL fan, and I hated the fact when I lived at the corner of Stockton and Post I had to drive to Bay Street park and then ride a shuttle bus into the Sports Complex...and there were like 2 Skyway Stations right there!! I don't understand how any people of Jacksonville could be against it actually going somewhere. It would actually make the city of Jacksonville a better place to live, especially for those that would like to live car free, like I do. I only use my ride for grocery shopping now. Shopping, Partying and Sporting events I use the train. There are those that like paying car insurance, buying gas, auto repair, defensively dealing with the so many other GREAT drivers on the roads & etc, I am one of the few that do not like doing those things. Its just an option. An option that Jacksonville should create for itself.  8 Stations??? naw thats not going to cut it.

[thelakelander]

As to crossing FEC tracks, we had a discussion before on this.  I know Ock or Lake objected, but I don't recall being convinced that street cars couldn't cross FEC tracks at grade.

I got caught at the tracks heading from DT to San Marco today. This is why it would be a bad idea. 


One train was bad enough....


Before it passed, another crossed in the opposite direction.

I don't imagine FEC will ever agree to an at-grade streetcar crossing, but if they did, the streetcar would be totally unreliable.  If mass transit can't get you to a certain place at a certain time period, on a regular basis, it will struggle to attract riders and be successful.

[Ocklawaha]

There IS a way past those tracks y'all...


This is correct Lakelander. We COULD do something running from somewhere in front of Baptist, straight South into San Marco, and on to San Jose or even Mandarin. We could also cross to the other side and start at Mary Street or Prudential and head straight east into the old JEA land and beyond to Saint Nicholas, Atlantic or Beach. Perhaps a streetcar bridge could be hacked out of the Main Street span by taking it down to two traffic lanes and one or two transit lanes.

Crossing the FEC at the Southbank would be insane. Not only is this a very busy segment of railroad, one that Carry's every single freight car destined for the East Coast of Florida between Jax and West Palm Beach, but it's not a scheduled mainline. This is TRANSFER TRACKAGE, a technical Main Line, but more of an extension of Moncrief, Simpson, West Jax, Beaver Street Interlocking, and Bowden Yards. As the two giant railroads CSX and NS bring in their freight trains from the North and Midwest or West, yard engines go to work pulling off cars that are bound for the FEC. As soon as they get X number of cars, they roll them down to Bowden Yard in the Southside so FEC can build them into trains.  Thus what you get here is very frequent rail traffic moving slowly at Yard Speeds... IT IS THE LAST PLACE YOU WANT A BUS, CAR, STREETCAR, LRT, or anything else.

BTW, the only fatality I have ever found on the old Jacksonville Traction Company was right in the center of this mess and for the same reasons. The South Jacksonville Municipal Railroad (streetcar) crossed the old Acosta, went down Prudential, then Hendricks to Atlantic. At Atlantic there was an East - West route that crossed the FEC running up to Saint Nicholas. The other end was in the center of San Marco Square area, and a third line went far south into San Jose. One early morning with a heavy fog, an FEC engine was pushing freight cars up to the old shipyards (about where the JEA/School Board property is today). The engineer had no visibility, neither did the crossing flagman or the streetcar motorman. A small 4-wheeled birney got T-Boned by the slowly moving freight train. It folded the streetcar around the end of a boxcar and caused a large derailment. A San Marco man, a mechanic going to work, was riding the streetcar and saw the boxcar looming up. The passengers screamed and held on for dear life, as did the motorman. The mechanic dove out the door and tried to get away. He was later found crushed between the rail cars. Light transit vehicles and big freight trains don't play well together, even though they could run on the same track.

OCKLAWAHA

[geauxtigers31]

While I think this addition would be huge for promoting ridership, I think it is much more of a desperate situation for them to extend to the stadium. Being relatively new to town I was perplexed at the lack of activity around the stadium/arena part of town. What an untapped resource if I only had some money! But then it became obvious when I went to my first Jags game and realized the signage/one way roads/parking situation is absurd. Most people wanna get in and out as soon as possible. It needs to be connected to the rest of downtown somehow.

[Ocklawaha]

While I think this addition would be huge for promoting ridership, I think it is much more of a desperate situation for them to extend to the stadium. Being relatively new to town I was perplexed at the lack of activity around the stadium/arena part of town. What an untapped resource if I only had some money! But then it became obvious when I went to my first Jags game and realized the signage/one way roads/parking situation is absurd. Most people wanna get in and out as soon as possible. It needs to be connected to the rest of downtown somehow.

Welcome to the fight! Glad to have another voice in this battle. Tuesday night at 5:30 - 7:30 in the downtown library on Laura Street the TPO will have a public meeting to discuss the expansion of various transit modes in the city. While the Skyway is more of a downtown distributer it should at least tap the edge of the human residential/commercial world. Streetcars and Commuter Rail could take it from there.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

While I think this addition would be huge for promoting ridership, I think it is much more of a desperate situation for them to extend to the stadium. Being relatively new to town I was perplexed at the lack of activity around the stadium/arena part of town. What an untapped resource if I only had some money! But then it became obvious when I went to my first Jags game and realized the signage/one way roads/parking situation is absurd. Most people wanna get in and out as soon as possible. It needs to be connected to the rest of downtown somehow.

Welcome to the fight! Glad to have another voice in this battle. Tuesday night at 5:30 - 7:30 in the downtown library on Laura Street the TPO will have a public meeting to discuss the expansion of various transit modes in the city. While the Skyway is more of a downtown distributer it should at least tap the edge of the human residential/commercial world. Streetcars and Commuter Rail could take it from there.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, I read geaux as advocating for connecting the stadium area better to Downtown via other forms of connectivity than the $ky-high-way.

As to the $ky-high-way connecting to at least the "edge fo the human residential/commercial world", I find fault two ways here:

(1) It already runs through the heart of Downtown and the Southbank with the City's highest density of offices and a substantial increase in residential and ridership continues to decline relentlessly; and

(2) That "edge" you are referring to around Downtown has been consistently receding for decades.  Most all housing around the stadium, in southern Springfield/Hogans Creek, along the Riverside/Park/Brooklyn areas as well as LaVilla, Myrtle, and West Beaver has been completely obliterated with no substantive replacements on the drawing boards along with the remaining possibility that the existing "edge" might not yet be through receding.

So, really, your approach is to "expand it" and they will build around it.  Yet, in over 20 years this is yet to be demonstrated in any substantial way with the existing complete system. 

I continue to remain very much unconvinced that your dreams for the $ky-high-way are justified.  We need to return back to putting commuter rail, street cars, and buses at the forefront of our solutions and not divert our precious resources to a proven fiasco.

[Ocklawaha]

I hear you about the receding residential units in the core area, though I think we have stabilized it somewhat with the addition of Berkman, 11E, Carling, Metropolitan Lofts, Churchwell Lofts, etc.

Two Skyway extensions have made the TPO and JTA studies and the Skyway ranked very high on the citizens opinion on which mode or transit we would like to see first.

There are reasons for the decline in ridership that have nothing to do with it being an elevated monorail system.
Fare increases cut the ridership in half...Dumb move. The track switch west of Central Station needs to be redesigned so trains can shuffle back and forth from a Jefferson-Central-Rosa Parks line, and a Central-San Marco-Kings Avenue line, as it is now that switch is moving all the time and any train from the Southside is getting "held out" for other trains to clear the station...Dumb move II.

Though they are actively planning both the Forrest Street extension as the Riverside Line, and the San Marco-Atlantic Blvd extension, if they can get those designed expidited through the process, we may be enjoying 100% Federal Financing.

The Stadium line isn't in the final cut even though at 20-30 venues per year, it would probably double the annual ridership.

Bottom line to all of our discussions, it isn't going to go away, and IT IS going to be expanded, my only reservation is the Sports District would have to be a place where an elevated train can do the most good. 70,000 football fans are currently parking perhaps 30,000 automobiles down there. How much easier if they could park in San Marco, Jacksonville Terminal or Riverside and ride above the traffic all the way into the stadium.

OCKLAWAHA