Elements of Urbanism: Cleveland

[lewyn]

I lived in Cleveland for a year (1996-7) and this discussion seems a bit rose-colored.  On the positive side, it is true that downtown was a bit less lifeless than Jacksonville's - and perhaps it is less lifeless still than it was 13 years ago.

But when I lived there, nearly everything between downtown and the city limits 6 miles out was either a marginal bohemian area (like Ohio City, which is more like Springfield than like San Marco) or was a complete ghetto. 
And given the city's population losses, I find it hard to believe that most neighborhoods have actually improved since then.

How bad were things? In the late 1990s, I practiced law in Cleveland and Buffalo.  In Cleveland, 4 lawyers of my firm's 60 lived in the city limits (2 downtown including me, 1 in Little Italy, 1 in another neighborhood 2 blocks from the western city limits).  In much-maligned Buffalo, about 1/3 of the lawyers lived in the city (though most of them lived 2 or 3 miles out in the Buffalo equivalent of Riverside, rather than in downtown).

[stephElf]

Looks awesome - I need to add this to the must-visit list!

[thelakelander]

How bad were things? In the late 1990s, I practiced law in Cleveland and Buffalo.  In Cleveland, 4 lawyers of my firm's 60 lived in the city limits (2 downtown including me, 1 in Little Italy, 1 in another neighborhood 2 blocks from the western city limits).  In much-maligned Buffalo, about 1/3 of the lawyers lived in the city (though most of them lived 2 or 3 miles out in the Buffalo equivalent of Riverside, rather than in downtown).

Sounds like Jacksonville.  If the firms you mentioned were in downtown Jacksonville, what percentage of lawyers would have lived in pre consolidated Jacksonville compared to those who would live in Argyle, Mandarin and the Southside.  My guess is that the percentages would be pretty close.  The difference is that Jax is consolidated with its core county while Cleveland and Buffalo are not.

[thelakelander]

* You managed to get pictures of 3 of my favorite restaurants in the city - Pickwick and Frolic on E 4th, Mallorca in the Warehouse District, and Great Lakes Brewing Company in Ohio City. Have a chance to partake at any of those locations?
* Speaking of Great Lakes Brewing Company - I would love to see a regional microbrewery with a restaurant and banquet facilities that wins awards after awards here in Jacksonville (I wonder if Bold City will go in that direction eventually). Buddy of mine had his bachelor party there and I was looking for a comparable place here in Jax...no dice.

I made a stop at Great Lakes Brewing Company.  That place is huge.

* I haven't seen it in action yet, but any read on how well the Euclid Corridor BRT system works?

I did not ride it personally but its impressive for a BRT system.  However, it should be for something that costs just as much as light rail at nearly $30 million/mile.  In any event, with this project they completely rebuilt Euclid Avenue and replaced regular traffic lanes with bus only lanes. 

Here are a few images of the busway that were not included in the article.

[Ocklawaha]

The press has not been very friendly to the EC nor has the driving public. Retailers are in a twist because without good auto access and with all the pavement, they have been left with fewer customers. But who knows at this point it is too early to tell. Under the rules now in the FTA the EC would not have scored high enough to be funded as a new start. Also note from inception to completion ate 10 full years, I thought BRT was the quick fix?

Bottom line for Jacksonville:

Before BRT we can catch a bus from downtown to the Avenues
After BRT we can catch a bus from downtown to the Avenues, minus a BILLION DOLLARS.

OCKLAWAHA

[Fallen Buckeye]

Some random thoughts on Cleveland:
*Cleveland gets insane amounts of snow in winter because of the lake. I think it's over 100 inches a winter. Makes keeping people that much harder and I agree that state tax policies as well some national policies (NAFTA anyone?) have really hurt Cleveland's economy.
*If I remember right some of the areas the Q and what used to be Jacobs Field were kinda rough areas that have picked up in the last few years as they refurbed the sports facilities. A lot of the attractions along the lake are pretty new (built in the last 10 ten years) too like the R'n'R HOF and the Browns Stadium. Where did the money come from to do all this? They have some great stuff...and less and less people every year to use it.
*Someone made a good point about how they keep historical architecture for new uses. I remember seeing a charter school in Cleveland that had once actually been a stockyard where they would load cattle onto the freight trains to be shipped out. They had all kinds of historical pictures up of what the school used to look like for the kids to see so they could understand their community that much better.

One last thing:
Go Browns!

[stjr]

How can you talk about Cleveland and not mention one of its most powerful economic engines that is one of its  biggest "tourist" draws taking up some 30 plus city blocks centered around Euclid Avenue and employing directly some 10,000 employees:

Cleveland Clinic was founded in 1921 by four doctors whose vision was to provide excellent patient care based on the principles of cooperation, compassion and innovation.

Today, Cleveland Clinic has locations throughout Northeast Ohio and beyond, including Canada, Florida, and Abu Dhabi. With more than 1,000 beds and 3.3 million patient visits each year, it is one of the largest and most respected hospitals in the country. Annually, people from 80 countries choose to travel to Cleveland Clinic for their care.

Cleveland Clinic consistently has been named as one of the nation's best hospitals, and for 15 years, our heart and heart surgery program has been ranked no. 1 in heart care in the country, according to the U.S.News & World Report "Best Hospitals" survey.

Structured as a group practice, Cleveland Clinic staff physicians receive salaries, allowing them to focus on benefiting patients and the community. Also, multidisciplinary teams of physicians often work together to give patients compassionate and highly skilled care.

Many major medical breakthroughs have happened at Cleveland Clinic, including the nation's first near-total face transplant. Our physicians and researchers continue to make life-changing discoveries in many areas, including cancer, heart disease, Parkinson's disease and stroke.

Main Hospital Campus. The main hospital campus is located near Cleveland’s historic University Circle. Occupying 166 acres and 50 buildings, the main campus includes a hospital, an outpatient clinic, a children’s hospital, cancer institute, eye institute, research institute and supporting labs and facilities.

Innovations
Many major medical breakthroughs have happened at Cleveland Clinic, including:
• Isolation of serotonin, a key factor in hypertension (1940s)
• Development of “no-touch” colorectal surgery (1950s)
• First coronary angiography (1958)
• Development and refinement of coronary bypass surgery (1967)
• First minimally invasive aortic heart valve surgery (1996)
• First successful larynx transplant (1998)
• Discovery of first gene linked to juvenile macular degeneration (2000)
• Discovery of first gene linked to coronary artery disease (2003)
• Pioneering success in deep brain stimulation for psychiatric disorders
and minimally conscious state (2006)
• First kidney surgery performed through a port in the patient’s
navel (2007)
• Nation’s first near-total face transplant (2008)
Numerous other breakthroughs and innovations have happened at Cleveland Clinic in fields ranging from basic science to brain surgery.

[heights unknown]

Nice looking "urban" city set.  City also looks nice and clean from the pics taken downtown and surrounding areas, but I wonder what the rest of Cleveland looks like; does the suburbs and outlying areas close to the city limits look the same as the urban core?

In additiion, does anyone know why Cleveland has declined from major city status (top 10) in 1950 and has lost over half of its population since that time?  And...it appears that Cleveland is still losing its population.  Wonder why those people left and where are all of those people flighting or migrating to?  Probably sunny Florida!

Though Cleveland is losing population, it appears that the city government/leaders have somewhat adjusted and the City still looks good, and is prosperous despite the population drop/loss.  Population, at some point, will probably bottom out and increase in the future.

Heights Unknown

[heights unknown]

Metro Jacksonville, let me take the time to commend you on these "Elements of Urbanism" threads that you periodically issue.  They are extremely informative, and gets all of our minds moving relative to comparing Jax to other cities which is good for the soul.  Hopefully, most of our City Leaders, including the Mayor read these threads, postings and the articles, responses, etc. so they MIGHT learn something to help and assist them to improve our City.

Heights Unknown

[Clem1029]

Nice looking "urban" city set.  City also looks nice and clean from the pics taken downtown and surrounding areas, but I wonder what the rest of Cleveland looks like; does the suburbs and outlying areas close to the city limits look the same as the urban core?

In additiion, does anyone know why Cleveland has declined from major city status (top 10) in 1950 and has lost over half of its population since that time?  And...it appears that Cleveland is still losing its population.  Wonder why those people left and where are all of those people flighting or migrating to?  Probably sunny Florida!

Though Cleveland is losing population, it appears that the city government/leaders have somewhat adjusted and the City still looks good, and is prosperous despite the population drop/loss.  Population, at some point, will probably bottom out and increase in the future.

As far as the suburbs go, it's a big question of where you go. Cleveland can best be described as having two rings of suburbs. The inner ring suburbs are SERIOUSLY hurting. Those are the areas where the joke of "buying the house for the price of a VCR" are accurate. Areas like Slavic Village, Garfield Heights, Maple Heights, Cleveland's west side...these places are hurting big time. And they look generally like what a northeast/midwest inner ring suburb looks like - grid patterened residential areas, main arteries with shopping, most with very little setbacks (although that's starting to change as redevelopment happens).

Then you get to the outer ring suburbs, and as you would expect that's where the money is at. Bay Village, Westlake, Avon, Strongsville on the west side, Solon, Shaker Heights, Beachwood, Macedonia on the east side are about what you would expect an outer ring suburb to look like - lots of mall/strip mall shopping areas, planned residential developments (although nothing on the scale of a "Plantation" planned development that we see here).

So basically, you've got a city with a seriously well-redeveloped downtown with most of the money in the outer ring...and an inner ring that's hurting big time.

As for why the population fell off, there's a ton of factors that go into this. First and foremost was the collapse of the steel industry. Cleveland was heavily a manufacturing town - when the industry collapsed, the jobs disappeared. Add that into a major tax burden that I mentioned previously, and it's been tough getting 21st century jobs to come to town. So you couple a city that has a tough time showing college grads it have they jobs they're looking for, with a reputation of being the last place you possibly want to go, and it's tough to make the city grow.

(Although, a side note here...I remember reading somewhere that the Cleveland area is one of the places that more people return to after having moved away than anywhere else...or at least among the top in that category. And I can understand there...if you haven't picked up a serious bit of nostalgia and stuff I miss about that town, especially compared to Jax, then you haven't been paying attention. )

And yes...we come to sunny Florida. If there's one thing deceiving about those pictures is that Lake just about got the most perfect summer day to take them. I guarantee you the reaction to those same pictures would be a whole lot less positive if they were taken in January. The old joke for that time of year was "Ah, Cleveland...where the gray skies blend into the gray abandoned buildings." I'm not going to even pretend I miss the weather there.

One other note - don't give Cleveland politicians (at the city or county level) too much credit here...much of the city's success is in spite of them, not because of them. Cleveland and Cuyahoga County could give a lot of places a run for their money on corruption and incompetence problems.

[thelakelander]

How can you talk about Cleveland and not mention one of its most powerful economic engines that is one of its  biggest "tourist" draws taking up some 30 plus city blocks centered around Euclid Avenue and employing directly some 10,000 employees:

Because we need others like you to fill in the gaps and keep the story going.

That's the beauty of the website.  

University Circle is the cultural, educational, and medical center of Greater Cleveland, and is located on the east side of Cleveland, Ohio.

While the main article may not go into detail on every asset each community offers, the story continues to evolve as readers add dialogue and information to the discussion.  In the end, we all come out knowing a little more that before.  Keep it up.

[stjr]

How can you talk about Cleveland and not mention one of its most powerful economic engines that is one of its  biggest "tourist" draws taking up some 30 plus city blocks centered around Euclid Avenue and employing directly some 10,000 employees:

Because we need others like you to fill in the gaps and keep the story going.

That's the beauty of the website.  

University Circle is the cultural, educational, and medical center of Greater Cleveland, and is located on the east side of Cleveland, Ohio.

While the main article may not go into detail on every asset each community offers, the story continues to evolve as readers add dialogue and information to the discussion.  In the end, we all come out knowing a little more that before.  Keep it up.

Alright, Lake, I am happy to oblige.  Here is another comment: Once again, we seem to see much wider sidewalks than in Jax.  I am mostly convinced we need to factor in wider sidewalks as we redevelop areas of Jax.  If you don't plan for larger numbers of pedestrians, you won't get them.  It's a self fulling prophecy IMHO.

[heights unknown]

Wow...thanks "clem" for educating me on Cleveland; it's best to hear the "real deal" from the horses mouth rather than digging around on the internet.  "Shades of Detroit" is how I best see Cleveland from what I have read.  The only difference is the steel industry in Cleveland and the auto industry in Detroit; but the great loss of population and flight is real in both cities due to the decline and decimation of those industries respective to both cities; great similarities between those two cities.

[Clem1029]

Wow...thanks "clem" for educating me on Cleveland; it's best to hear the "real deal" from the horses mouth rather than digging around on the internet.  "Shades of Detroit" is how I best see Cleveland from what I have read.  The only difference is the steel industry in Cleveland and the auto industry in Detroit; but the great loss of population and flight is real in both cities due to the decline and decimation of those industries respective to both cities; great similarities between those two cities.

The Detroit comparison is funny to me...mainly because, being a Cleveland native, I also see Detroit as the worst case scenario for Cleveland rather than the other way around. Attempting to be objective, at the end of the day, Detroit = Pittsburgh = Cleveland. Natives from each city will scream otherwise, but I think that's more of a case of rivalries with people you share too much in common with. Each city has it's issues and it's signs of hope, but they're all built on the same idea...blue collar, hard nose, bust your rear end industry.

With all that said, echoing Fallen Buckeye...I could care less about Detroit, but Go Browns and *bleep* Pittsburgh!

[tufsu1]

maybe the BRT corridor is spurring development

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/11/clevelands_euclid_corridor_pro.html