first baptist featured on morons.com

[Ocklawaha]

Stephendare, I don't believe I suggested "why" the Romans were after the Christians. You are correct of course in that Rome was religious. Even in it's early and more blood thirsty days, Rome had an odd habit of absorbing the religions of whatever people they conquered. This didn't apply to the early Christians because as you pointed out, they refused to bow to the Emperor. Emperor worship became a standard quite a few years into the empire. Citizens could lead whatever life and worship whichever god they chose but one day a year, they had to give offerings and worship in the Temple of the Emperor. Christians of course could not do this without losing their faith. Yet Rome was so devout to it's pantheon, that we modern Americans still call their names almost every day!

For those who don't know what Stephendare and I are talking about, we still use a good deal of the Julian Calender to this day. That calender taken from ancient Mesopotamia, uses a host of gods or planet-gods for the names of the days of the week. When it was "modernized" we just added in and replaced some of the "unknowns" with Norse gods. Thus we went from Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn to the Medieval Period. Tuesday is Tiu, Norse god of war. Woden is Wednesday, supreme deity. Thursday is Thor's Day, god of thunder. Friday is Frigg day, She was the wife of Odin and goddess of love and beauty. The others are pretty easy to figure out.  

Ocklawaha

[Charleston native]

...Technically speaking, a pedophile is a person who achieves sexual gratification by having sex with children who have not been through puberty BECAUSE of the fact that they havent been through puberty.....its the prepubescent state that is the turn on.

It would be mis-speaking to imply that muhamed was attracted to children sexually...

Well, with that statement, you're being disingenuous in describing the desires of men in the Middle East, particularly where women are not exactly believed to be in the same class as men to begin with. Do you actually believe that in those arrangements, men did not have sex with these young girls or were sexually attracted to them? Why do you think those cultures allowed that practice?

Keep in mind that Arabic culture and Jewish culture are very separate, different things, so your earlier example of Mary being chosen by God despite her being 13 to 14 years old is a moot point. Mary's destiny was an honor bestowed on her while Ayesha's was another form of slavery.

[Charleston native]

Stephen, you are quite accurate in your statement about the lineage of Jews and Arabs. Yes, they both can trace their roots to Abraham, but the religions of Judaism and Islam are entirely different. Judaism has been around far longer than Islam; Islam was started around 700 AD. Muhammed himself traveled in caravans during the younger part of his life, and he picked up many bits and pieces from Jewish and Christian travelers. The God he calls Allah was actually the moon god out of the over 300 gods that were worshipped by Arabic pilgrims throughout Saudi Arabia.

As far as the sexual proclivities of Muhammed, you may be right...there is no concrete proof of his pedophilia, but I think you are being very disingenuous to the culture of some Arabic tribes, let alone the desires of man. You honestly think that there was no "hanky panky" going on? That's a little naive, IMO, especially when we are talking about a man with a huge ego and power trip.

[Charleston native]

No, religion and ethnic lineage are completely separate entities, and again, the actual religion of Islam is nowhere near the age of Judaism. That is a fact. Islam was not established until almost 600 years after the death and resurrection of Christ and over 4,000 years since the establishment of Judaism. They DO NOT "spring from the same source". Muslim critics of Christianity conveniently try to point the finger at the worship of Jesus while forgetting that there are historical references to His existence and punishment by the Roman government.

The origin of the worship of Allah isn't propoganda, you can find these facts in many theological dissertations and essays. I try to stay away from stuff like the American Nazi Party. BTW, the Hadith actually confirms that Muhammed did indeed consummate the marriage when she was 9 years old, 3 years after he married her.

The Jesus analogy is quite disturbing. Sorry, that's putting Muhammed as having the same amount of credence as Jesus, and I just can't do that, especially with a man who is tremendously fallible in comparison to Jesus.

[Ocklawaha]

Stephendare! I'm amazed at your attitude toward The National Socialist Workers Party! One has to look at the good things they did too...

They created the worlds first freeway system

They gave my generation "The Peoples Car" designed in part by that old artisit AH himself.

They razed that ugly old "congress" building

They built the worlds best submarines, and taught us how to use them

They sent us their "brains" to get NASA to the Moon and back

They helped the Polish with urban renewal in Warsaw

They had fashion designers that created really snappy uniforms



Spike Jones and the City Slickers

When Der Fuehrer says, "We ist der master race"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuehrer's face
Not to love Der Fuehrer is a great disgrace
So we HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuehrer's face
When Herr Gobbels says, "We own der world und space"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Herr Goring's face
When Herr Goring says they'll never bomb this place
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Herr Goring's face

Are we not the supermen
Aryan pure supermen
Ja we ist der supermen
Super-duper supermen
Ist this Nutzi land not good?
Would you leave it if you could?
Ja this Nutzi land is good!
Vee would leave it if we could

We bring the world to order
Heil Hitler's world New Order
Everyone of foreign race will love Der Fuehrer's face
When we bring to der world disorder

When Der Fuehrer says, "We ist der master race"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuehrer's face
When Der Fuehrer says, "We ist der master race"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuhrer's face

Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

Stephen, before I toss any stones, I discovered in Apologetics that only a tiny percent of ALL pastors and priests of all Christian faiths even get ONE SINGLE course in the study! Those that do often have a single class or in most cases, an interfaith missionary comes and does a 45 minute speech. THIS IS JUST NOT ACCEPTABLE from either a conservative (we need to win the World) standpoint, or a liberal (we need to understand the World) standpoint. The fault here goes beyond what Doctor Vines or Brunson, or Lindsey might have said. It goes to the heart of everything from Florida Baptist Seminary to Concordia, to St. Paul's...

While I have taught the subject in FBCJ in the past (yes folks the old hippie is a "born again Christian") I always caution my classes to stay away from subject matter that causes a lot of heat and very little light. From a conservative standpoint, we must not "preach" that Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas, Birthdays, take blood or salute the flag. We must stay away from "Mountain Meadows," (see the movie September Dawn) or polygamy, or baptism for the dead, within the Mormon Church. Likewise, I believe attack on the "prophet" of Islam, is not the way to win converts or influence success in evangelism.

The Gospel must live or die based on the facts. The facts must be understood from the oldest validated writings forward. We can't go to a book written in 600 AD, and accept it's story of Christ, the same as the eye witness accounts in the Bible. Moreover the Bible accounts are backed by many Roman and Jewish historians that were non believers. From our few true apologetics and scripture historians, it appears that Mohammad gained his knowledge of the new "Christian" movement through traders which brought him stories. Many may have been greatly altered before they reached his ears. Did he have a vision? Well, for those in Islam, he did. Faith, that single element makes everything else he said as fact (in their minds). But not so fast. Was he correct in every forecast? Every prediction? Why was he hunted down by his own tribal peoples at first? Can we answer this? (I'm no challenging you Stephendare, to answer these questions, simply making the point that the research is far from complete). Had the "prophet" erred the penalty in those times was certain death.

The "Moon-god" story is told and retold, Here is the basis: Mohammad and his men rode into a opposition city where vastly outnumbered he would have been killed. They had many temples, and as he was approached by the chiefs and leaders, they asked him, "Who is god? which is the correct temple of the true god? According to the tale, he pointed at the largest and most magnificent temple atop which was a crescent moon, "THAT ONE" he said. Sometime after, he was allowed to enter and "correct the doctrine" within that temple. Thus the Mosque, and Crescent came into being. The trouble with this tale is it isn't a first hand account. We can't be sure it even happened. Was this story altered before it reached our ears? What other sources are there?

Many of us feel that certain branches of Islam are downright evil. But if we looked under our own beds, we could find that many branches of so-called "Christian" groups are just as bad... Do you let a child die because he can't take blood? Do you execute prisoners with gunfire (for their salvation) because Jesus' blood isn't strong enough for capital sins (Utah)? Do you hand a pregnant teen a rattlesnake in church to see if she has a demon? Do you starve a baby that is believed demon possessed? Maybe we burn the non-believers at the stake? These are all EXTREME EXAMPLES of the worst in humanity hiding behind a church. I don't care if it's Baptist, Catholic, Mormon, Kingdom Hall, Temple or Mosque.

Again, the whole of the Christian gospel is: God Created Man and Woman. We sinned, We failed to keep the law handed down by God (the same one that's now illegal to post in our own Courthouses). No mere lamb or dove could be sacrificed to save our rebellious souls. So God himself became man, walked on the Earth, lived as 100% man, and yet was 100% God. He raised the dead, healed the sick, restored the truth, and was murdered by us... (not by Jews, or Romans or Greeks) BY US! He died, was buried, and on the third day he rose from the dead. He was seen and recorded by 1,000's more people after he rose, and he ascended into heaven. He said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" and "I go to prepare a place for you". He also said he will return... This gospel story makes all branches of Christianity unique, in that it is the only faith where it doesn't matter if you understand his teachings, You don't have to know his history, You don't have to do good works, You ONLY need to accept him for who and what he said he is: Jesus Christ The Lord, King of Kings.

It would be easy to continue to attack the mis-steps of various followers and teachers. It would be easy to keep up the tales about Islam or Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy or Pope Innocent. But in the end, none of that really matters. The only thing we each need to ask is "Who is Jesus to you?"

So I agree with you Stephendare, do the research, learn the facts, then speak the truth in LIGHT!

End of my sermons on line...
Brother Bob...

AKA: Ocklawaha

[Charleston native]

Stephen, this is just an argument where we're going to have to agree to disagree. Muslims may claim that Allah is the same God of Abraham, but this can be greatly debated due to historical references and context. Keep in mind that Christians also abide by the Old Testament, written far before the Gospels, so no, you can't apply the same logic in that the religion "started" when its scripture was written. The example of Muhammed writing his word at a later date is inapplicable. The fact is that Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah in the OT...they're inter-related. Where in any book of Scripture, OT or NT, stipulates the necessity of another prophet? Islam does not seek to connect itself to Jews and Christians...it very much appears to want to be built on top of them.

Ocklawaha, you have written a very superb post that I can almost completely agree with. You're right, we as followers of Christ must show people the way, absolutely. But we also must be aware of false prophets, and many Christians believe Islam is a creation of a false prophet. For the most part, a great post!

[Ocklawaha]

This has been an interesting discussion "my brother"! I think in principal we agree on most of these issues. While I have no problem with Doctor so and so and so, teaching me about beliefs of different kinds, he better do his homework, because like yourself, I have.

At this season of the year it seems so clear, just how simple the message of Jesus really is, and we humans try and muddle it all up. We're quite good at it too.


 
I always pictured "Madonna in Hell," being forced to sit in a sound booth and hear endless recordings of Bach, Holtz etc... Perhaps if Falwell got there, he found a earthen domed house waiting for him and "Tinky Winky" runs out to give him a big hug... "La La" "Poe" and ROFL.

Peace to all of you this beautiful season, in the Worlds most beautiful City.  

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

I went to FBC.  That's all it took for me to decide that those people are NJ's (Nut Jobs).  What made me decide was when "a brother" prayed for all the "Jews that were lost". Duh Jesus was a Jew.  I couldn't get that remark out of of my mind.  Has anybody ever heard of  a Rabi molesting an alterboy.  I think the Christians has a monopoly on that. Why we no hear of Rabi's molesting kids?  Name one and I'll retract this rant. 

The other constant was the group leader praying to protect the bapatist as they are the saving grace.  Yes, John showed me the way, but so did Sarah Connor. 

I watched Homer Lindsey on tv Sunday mornings and yes I got something from it.  I really did.  You also get something from Playboy tv.  It's more about what you do then anything else.  If you help a brother out that's what matters.

Jesus said 1) Love God, 2) Love yourself, and 3) Love your neighbor.  Period. That's it.  EOD

[second_pancake]

I watched Homer Lindsey on tv Sunday mornings and yes I got something from it.  I really did.  You also get something from Playboy tv. 

ROFLMAO!  Probably best not to mix issues of politics and issues of personal beliefs in the same forum...regardless of what the current presidential candidates would have us believe.  There is a reason why our founding fathers dictated a seperation of church and state, ya know?

Each individual has some sort of deep personal belief, and all any of us should be concerned with is whether or not that individual is free to live by those beliefs without imposing force on others.  If you're Southern Baptist, great.  Catholic, that's peachy.  Muslim, wonderful.  Don't force your ideals down my throat and threaten my beliefs or quality of life with yours, and we'll all get along (speaking in generalities, not about anyone here specifically).  So, to address the information in the links posted and comments regarding Jerry Vines and FBCJ, they're all wrong

[Ocklawaha]

I went to FBC. That's all it took for me to decide that those people are NJ's (Nut Jobs). What made me decide was when "a brother" prayed for all the "Jews that were lost". Duh Jesus was a Jew. I couldn't get that remark out of of my mind. Has anybody ever heard of a Rabi molesting an alterboy. I think the Christians has a monopoly on that. Why we no hear of Rabi's molesting kids? Name one and I'll retract this rant.

Rabbi Benyamin Fleischman is a photographer and is frequently commissioned to do jobs outside of the state of Maryland (including outside of the US). His probation order permits him to travel. Please note that his work in the past has included weddings (with children present), Bar and Bat Mitzvahs (Commerical Photography and Video). If you suspect your child or someone else's child has been victimized please contact your local child protection hotline or The Awareness Center for a referral. Mr. Fleischman sentence is 10 years which will be suspended, five years probation, with the requirements recited before of no contact with children under 18. He is to cooperate with Child Protective Services. He was also ordered to stay away from his victim, and to have no unsupervised contact. There is a new trend that is happening all over the country (U.S.) Many alleged offender are pleading guilty to a lessor charge, so that the plea agreement will include a stipulation that a convicted sex offenders will not have to be placed on the states sex offenders registry. When this happens it puts the entire community (or in this case children in other countries) at risk of harm. Please note that no news media group has picked up this case, even though Mr. Fleischman was a well known person in the Jewish community in Baltimore.

Gatorback, I'd like to hear brother Stephendare's take on this too. Frankly, NJ (Nut Jobs) come in all religions and all races. The sex abuse or rapists have no religion or creed, they are criminals that sadly hide where people feel their children are "safe". In the mid East, it is common for a 12 year old girl to be held down by her father and his relations and be circumcised with a razor while she screams. Remember the Moslem's were selling popcorn, at the female executions, held at the local stadium in Kabul. There is a Hindu sect that castrates young boys to serve men. The blood of "Ana-Baptists" Jean Ribault, and anyone else "other then Catholic" was spilled over the local sand dunes South of St. Augustine. The site is marked with the Spanish name for the River, today we just pass over the Matanzas, without a thought to the horrors that took place there. Matanzas? in English? A river named SLAUGHTER.

Baptist doctrine also teaches Jesus said "I AM the way". For that reason they pray for any person or group that doesn't see the Words of Christ. It's not a put down, it because they/I/we really do care. Southern Baptists as a whole, revolt against authoritarian rules from Nashville. They question everything just as our Jewish friends do. Thus the many splinter groups of Baptists, and the many more "Independent Baptist" churches. No two are just alike. While some "independent" groups go way off into cult weird, most are rock solid. The official word from Nashville, (at least they agree on a few things... sometimes) is that ANY believer in Christs gospel is our brother. Black, White, Latin, Straight, Gay, Rich, Poor, etc... The gospel that: God became man, lived among us, was murdered, buried, rose on the 3Rd day, and ascended into heaven. John 3:16 lays it out about as clear as it gets, whoever believes and confesses Jesus, (no qualifications) is saved. Catholic? My brother. Lutheran? My brother. Methodist? My brother. Don't read into this that we are perfection... WE AIN'T. Churches are NOT sanctuary's for Saints, they are Hospitals for Hippocrates...

We are blessed in Jacksonville to have such a huge and active church. Wouldn't matter one hoot to me if it were any Christian church. Frankly, from a City standpoint, it wouldn't matter much whoever they were. We have 20,000 persons that pop in and out of downtown several times a week. This is like having our own NBA team, without the riots! I think it's time to quit trying to shoot one of the biggest and best things we have going for us and find a way to make these people a downtown fixture... Did you ever meet a Baptist that didn't go to dinner after Sunday service? Maybe that's a good place to start.

That's my view...

Ocklawaha

[second_pancake]

Once again, the Pancake must eat her words.  After re-reading this, I realize we're in the "break room" which would imply that this is a place used to break from the standard city-activism.  D'OH!  I swear, I'll figure this all out one day and stop eating crow pie .  ~puts tail between legs and scoots out of forum~

[gatorback]

So, to address the information in the links posted and comments regarding Jerry Vines and FBCJ, they're all wrong

Wrong?  Hitler was wrong.  GW is wrong.  JV was right?!

[fsujax]

Wanted to wish a everyone a Merry Christmas from a FBC NJ (nut job)!! Nice post Ock!

[gatorback]

Wanted to wish a everyone a Merry Christmas from a FBC NJ (nut job)!! Nice post Ock!

I Love FBC just not the NJ's that made those stupid comments.  If you follow Jesus Christ you're not a NJ.