Retired rail employees fight to preserve old train in Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

Bill Howes and George Bollinger are old railroad guys working to preserve an old train.

Howes, 70, and Bollinger, 68, both CSX retirees, have been leading efforts to save a rare steam engine, Atlantic Coast Line locomotive No. 1504, located in the Prime Osborn Convention Center's back parking lot.

"It's important that we prevent further deterioration in this train," said Bollinger, secretary of the North Florida chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. "I'd like to see the train utilized again, but I realize that's probably a long shot."

Howes and Bollinger remember watching steam trains operate around the end of World War II, when they were children.

full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-07-27/story/retired_rail_employees_fight_to_preserve_old_train_in_jacksonville

[fsujax]

George is a great guy and huge proponent of Commuter Rail and Amtrak. His group has been very active in lobbying our local officials, JTA, the City and FDOT. Keep up the good work fellas!

[Lunican]

It would be great to see this locomotive restored.

Here is an article Metro Jacksonville did last year on it:


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-atlantic-coast-line-1504

[mtraininjax]

Where was this excitement back when the CITY had money for non-profits? Timing is everything. I would love to see something done with it, even put a shelter over it to protect against the sun. Can we deem it a park so it gets some tax revenue as a park?

[Ocklawaha]

RAILROADESE 101 (Ocks fun rant).

Okay guys, IT IS NOT A TRAIN. It has no lights, flags or markers, meaning it's just a DEAD piece of equipment, if it were still on live track the track would have to be "blue flagged," which is a step ahead of a Stop Sign. In railroading, a blue flag means someone is working on equipment and thus the track is TOTALLY OFF LIMITS. Railroaders never - never - never - EVER pass a blue flag or operate on a blue flagged track. Also by definition, the lack of markers, lights and/or white or green flags on either side of the smoke box mean the old gal is not a train, no train will enter live rail without the proper orders and "markers".

Two white flags, mounted on either side of the smokebox (front of the boiler) would mean that this is an "Extra train", not normally found in the schedules. Extra's come out to play when industry, orders or economics really start to move. Most local switch train jobs are extras, as such they are the lowest priority train and MUST take the siding whenever they meet a superior train.

Two green flags, can only mean the railroad is very healthy. Let's say train 386, has 120 freight cars, if you add a caboose (rare today) then it's 121 cars long. Due to some short steep grades north of Savannah as well as West of Orlando, the train is running with 4 large locomotives. That much weight hanging on those coupler knuckles could pull the coupler out, break it like glass or even cause a derailment. What to do? split the train into 2 trains of 60 and 61 cars respectively. Green flags are mounted on the first locomotive of the first train. This is a sign to all railroaders that there is a "SECTION FOLLOWING". So where we once had only #386 we now have #386 and "SECOND 386."

Storage has been the worst of masters for this grand lady of the rails. Rain goes down that smokestack and puddles, rusting the smokebox and doing unknown damage to boiler tubes. To get her in working condition all pipes, wheel bearings, rods, links etc would have to be removed. A hydrostatic would have to be run on boiler and fittings. She would look fine inside the transportation center, at track one, just ahead of the PV cars.

We are in an age with the thousands of locomotives donated and displayed all over the nation in small towns and cities, are reaching a vital, fix it or die time frame. Quite a few steam and diesel engines have been removed from city parks and placed in rehab. Florida has several as do tiny prairie towns, Jacksonville Beach has a beauty in its historical village. It could also be that if we wish to lead this field toward a transportation museum we may be able to buy some classic engines now displayed. Altus, Oklahoma has a very rare 2 - 10 - O sitting out in the elements, Duncan, Oklahoma likewise has a HUGE Rock Island steam engine in a park, we could go hunting! We wouldn't want the 1504 to get lonely. Meanwhile, somebody PLEASE COVER THAT SMOKESTACK.

OCKLAWAHA
"Just a little color to honor the memory of Mr. Champ."

[thelakelander]

Ock, you should forward your rant over to the TU.  Perhaps they'll correct their title or get it right the next time?

[jbroadglide]

I've already sent an e-mail to Larry Hannan advising him that this is not a train. It is a locomotive. Have not heard back yet.

[trey11]

so what happened at the hearing last week i was out of town, would the COJ let a small group of us resore 1504 or even paint it I WOULD LOVE TO HELP!!!!!  I have a bucket that will fit  in the stack but every time i go down there to climb up and put it on there 2 JSO cars in the lot  I don't feel like getting arrested . 

[trey11]

If the COJ would allow us help, we could form a nonprofit and fund raise and apply for grants. I thought 1504 was already on the  National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark list .because 1504 and B&O 4500 are USRA locomotive left over from that era 1504 because she almost as-is and 4500 because she  was the first. I think it would be allfull if  something with that much history just rust away and get sold for scrap. other city's have aloud there  locomotives to be restored,that have been in parks just as long or longer as 1504. if we disconnected the rods and  oiled her wheel bearings and place some snap track to get her back to the main line. then  rent a building with a siding that's close to where she could run on the S-line.  then  a small group of us could get her ready  enough to have 1504 deadheaded (or pulled) to that location.

[aubureck]

What happened at the meeting...

The Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission voted unanimously to recommend that the City Council designated ACL #1504 as a Local Landmark.  The application has now been forwarded to Council for their vote for the designation, should happen within the next couple of months.

After that, who knows...The designation of a property or site as a local landmark does not guarantee any funding or restoration.  It simply states that this is something of local significance and any future restoration, movement, etc, requires the review of the Historic Preservation Section of the Planning and Development Department

[Ocklawaha]

...and no to my environmentalist friends, a steam engine running well and not posing for photos emits very little smoke, this shot is pure Hollywood.

What happened at the meeting...

The Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission voted unanimously to recommend that the City Council designated ACL #1504 as a Local Landmark.  The application has now been forwarded to Council for their vote for the designation, should happen within the next couple of months.

After that, who knows...The designation of a property or site as a local landmark does not guarantee any funding or restoration.  It simply states that this is something of local significance and any future restoration, movement, etc, requires the review of the Historic Preservation Section of the Planning and Development Department

Historic Preservation Section of the Planning and Development Department? Oh Lord, she'll get bulldozed into a pile of razor blades for certain now! Unless we blow her up!

I'm all for forming a group to save and restore her but I wouldn't get too excited about steam trips down the "S" line until a complete mechanical is done. The boiler will have to be removed, new flues, etc... Easily a million dollars or more. The closest steam shop is probably in Pennsylvania, unless Spencer or Roanoke could still do the job.

On the positive side, having a restored ACL USRA PACIFIC TYPE LOCOMOTIVE running around the country to special events with a name like "City of Jacksonville", would bring untold large amounts of goodwill and PR to our city. How many are old enough to remember the freedom train? What about the operation lifesaver TEXAS TYPE that high stepped into town? Anyone ride the Southern Railways excursions to Valdosta? Bet you remember the details like it was yesterday. Ever notice how that massive Texan caused a localized earthquake? Did you know that Union Pacific's BIG BOY TYPE engines weigh in at over 1,000,000 pounds wet? AWESOME! What we need is a benefactor for rail and steam age history in this town, anyone want to ante up?

OCKLAWAHA

[macbeth25]

These are some spectacular photos.  If anyone would like to see some other railroad memorabilia, please stop by our WNHS museum in Callahan.  We're trying to keep our own heritage alive and have some pretty good exhibits.  I hope the rail employees are successful.  Please check our website at http://www.wnhsfl.org/.  We're usually open the second and fourth Saturdays of each month.  Just for your information, we have a new pool hall which serves breakfast starting at 5 am.  It's called Mark's Pool Hall and their food is great.  I tried them out earlier this week.

[macbeth25]

stephendare:  That was interesting.  You might be interested in stopping by our WNHS museum and also taking a look at the one in Fernandina Beach -- http://www.ameliamuseum.org/ .  We’ve got a lot of railroad related material at WNHS and the one at Fernandina Beach is really good, too.  Check out our schedule: http://www.wnhsfl.org/ .

[macbeth25]

You put in your latest just as I was writing this.  I'll take a look at it but here's what I wrote:  If you like, we'll get together one Saturday and you can have breakfast at Mark's Pool Hall then go to the WNHS museum.  Let me know when you'd like to come by.  The same goes for anyone else who'd like to come.  Marks serves good food at reasonable prices.  They, I think I've said this elsewhere, start serving breakfast at 5 am.  

[JHenry459]

Stephendare:
Very interesting info on the Cummer Sons Cypress Company and your family's ties to it. The Cummers were no strangers to Nassau County. The majority of timberland in Nassau County were owned and harvested by them roughly between 1910s and 1940s. The West Nassau Historical Society is currently doing research on the Cummer Logging Tram Line that stretched from the Cummer Camp southeast of Hilliard to a unloading dock on the Trout River in Dinsmore in Duval County.  We have pictures of the old tram bed which is still visible in several areas of Nassau and Duval Counties as well as the concrete base that once held the crane that unloaded the logs from the train to the river. If you have any info or photos of this line, I would love to see them.

Regarding the initial post of the train (er, locomotive) restoration at the Prime Osborn Center, I am glad someone is taking the initiative to restore it. The West Nassau Historical Society is in the middle of their own rail car refurbishment: A 1962 ACL caboose that has long been the victim of the weather and the elements. Although it now sports a fresh coat of bright red paint, the interior is in far worse condition.  The Society hopes to have the interior ready for visitors by next year's Railroad Days Festival in March 2010.  We set up work days to coincide with the open hours of the Museum inside the Callahan Depot, so please let us know if you decide to accept Macbeth25's invitation and revisit Callahan one Saturday.

And for all of the rail and history fans and visitors who are planning to come to Nassau County, there is a new blog on line that covers trains and trails of Nassau County.  http://trainsandtrailsofnassaucountyfla.blogspot.com/

Thanks
JHenry459