Healthcare in the U.S. and Canada

[tufsu1]

This is a very interesting article, which dispels some of the rhetoric about the Canadian system that is being used to oppose changes here.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1019355.ece

[Shwaz]

Just reading the title "Oh, Canada, where health care for all 33 million is free"

Canadians pay higher sales taxes â€" 13 percent

But I thought it was free? 

The truth is they have a choice of doctors, though it is more limited than in the United States. Windsor, part of a metro area of 400,000, has five cardiologists; St. Petersburg (population 245,000) has more than 40.

How comfortable would you be living in an area of 400k having a serious heart condition and having 5 cardiologists to choose from? How long would it take to see 1 of the top 2?

"I can do whatever test I want. I just happen to bill one payer, and that's the government,'' says Turnbull, the Ottawa physician.

Except for a PET scan looking for cancer… that’s $2400 out of pocket â€" again I thought it was free?

He and others acknowledge that the government imposes de facto controls by not approving payment for tests considered experimental or of dubious value. Because Ontario is one of the few provinces that still doesn't pay for PET scans, used to diagnose cancer, doctors hesitate to order a scan that can cost a patient $2,400 out of pocket.

The article lists more "cons" than "pros" 

One irrefutable truth about the Canadian system is that people often have to wait weeks, even months, for non-emergency care.

The long waits have sparked a robust debate over whether Canada should move more closely to a U.S.-style system in which those who have money or good insurance can get faster access to health care.

In 2005, the Canadian Supreme Court struck down a Quebec law that banned private insurance for government-covered procedures, noting that some patients had died while waiting for public care. "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care,'' the court said.

This is why I believe we just need to fix our current system... everything in this article screams how much better our actual
Health Care is and that in Canada it's just "free". There is plenty we can do to lower our current coverage, make insurance affordable to those without and not die waiting for attention.

"Access to health care in the U.S. was fantastic. I was very impressed with the speed of care,'' says Raj Kumar Goel, a urologist who trained at the Cleveland Clinic before recently returning to Windsor. "

[tufsu1]

I would be fine with limited services that are guaranteed.....anything else would not covered be insurance (as is becoming the case here more and more every day).....if one has the means to pay out of pocket for expedited or elective procedures, more power to them....but no one should be denied basic care.

[fsu813]

That's a great article outlining the differences........i'm all for it, if it can be done at a reasonale cost.

[Shwaz]

But the article you states Canadians cannot have extra medical insurance to expidite procedures allowed and paid for by government health care... even though their citizens have died waiting for these procedures. These people would have to travel most likely to the U.S. to get them done and pay out of pocket. People who can afford out of pocket are not a factor for why or why not to have government health care.

[Shwaz]

That's a great article outlining the differences........i'm all for it, if it can be done at a reasonale cost.

It probably will happen by September and most likely at an unreasonable cost.

[Tripoli1711]

Nobody is denied basic care.  Nobody.  Go to an ER.  See if they will deny you basic care.  It will not happen.  "limited services that are guaranteed".  What?  So it is guaranteed that after a few weeks you can have an appointment with a doctor.  He will suspect that you have cancer.  It might take many more weeks for a test to become available (hence the "limited" nature of the services), but what the hey.. at least it was guaranteed that you are now scared as hell for weeks and weeks waiting on a test to find out if you even have cancer, let alone treating it.

How about instead of trading freedom for some worthless "guarantee" that the government cannot adequately back up anyway, you actually demand more freedom.  Wouldn't you rather be given the opportunity to save pre tax dollars to buy your own insurance in a competitive marketplace that covers what you want to pay for it to cover?

[blizz01]

I really enjoyed this article in The Washington Post - especially this excerpt which is spot on:

The emergency room has become the equivalent of the family doctor. It is where you go if you don't have a family doctor or if you do have a family doctor -- and it's after hours or the weekend. It is also where you sometimes have to go in order to be admitted to a hospital. The staff is mostly courteous, sometimes wonderfully solicitous, but the constant triaging of new people can put you on a treadmill to nowhere. The emergency room is the great leveler of American life. Everyone gets miserable treatment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/13/AR2009071302620.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[Shwaz]

really schwaz?  35 million uninsured, and none of them died waiting for a procedure (that will never come) in the US?  Im not sure thats a very good selling point.

At least in Canada, they were able to get on a list.  Also you brought up earlier that there were some parts of canada with fewer kinds of doctors in them.



Do you really think that you simply have all those doctors laying around in places like brunswick?

Because they don't.

Stephen I'm glad you brought this up. I have a cousin who at age 7 was diagnosed with seizures. He lived in Sylvester GA at the time. His attacks became quite severe and he had to be life-flighted from time to time to Atlanta and Jacksonville.

My Aunt took him to neurosurgeon after neurosurgeon. Each doctor would give him a new cocktail of drugs. It was trial and error... some drugs made him lethargic to the point of almost vegetative while others couldn't hold back the seizures. This journey went up and down the East Coast then Midwest until my Aunt found a surgeon who was doing a some what new procedure of disconnecting the 2 sides of the brain. It was determined through many tests my cousin had speech activity on both sides as well as physical movement and he would be able to walk and talk after the procedure was done.

How many doctors in "Sylvester" region of Canada would be capable of something like this?
How long would it take for evaluations and appointments to see the few doctors allowed to treat him?


It’s been 3 years since the operation and not 1 seizure. We played football in the yard yesterday and swam in the ocean and in big part from the cutting edge medical treatment that was available immediately and paid for by his father’s health insurance.

[Shwaz]

But what basis do you have for thinking that this would not happen in canada?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 1984 Canada Health Care Act (PDF) guarantees basic services for all citizens. But there are actually 10 separate health care systems run by the 10 provinces.

Canadians freely admit that their system is not perfect, citing shortages of doctors in many places

Windsor, part of a metro area of 400,000, has five cardiologists

The long waits have sparked a robust debate over whether Canada should move more closely to a U.S.-style system in which those who have money or good insurance can get faster access to health care.

In 2005, the Canadian Supreme Court struck down a Quebec law that banned private insurance for government-covered procedures, noting that some patients had died while waiting for public care. "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care,'' the court said.

[fsu813]

Tripoli,

The ER is not quality healthcare program. It's an emergency healthcare program. Doesn't pay for blood tests, cancer screenings, etc. All of which are very basic and extremely useful and benefitial.

[Tripoli1711]

The reply was a response to the issue of whether anyone in the United States suffered from an outright rejection of healthcare provision. 

[Joe]

My wife has Canadian relatives who are quite ill. While their healthcare is free, it is clearly inferior to anything offered in the US. Long waits, insufficient treatment, limited options, substandard care. I'm not going to discuss any more personal details on a public forum, but it's a really really bad situation.

In the United States we ALREADY have free healthcare where it matters. The truly poor qualify for medicaid, and emergency rooms cannot turn anyone away for life threatening situations. All these healthcare "fixes" are just painfully transparent schemes to try and bribe voters with the appearance of something for nothing.

If you think govt run healthcare is a good idea, I respectfully submit that you're just trying to game the system. You've already run the numbers in your head, and you figure that because of your tax bracket, you'll reap more in benefits than you'll ever pay in taxes.

Fine. That just makes you a rational economic actor. You want the government to give you more money than you pay in return. I can understand that. I just hope that everyone has the chance to talk to an 80-year-old who lives in a country with socialized medicine. Ask them about their everyday experiences when they've been seriously ill. Try to find out for yourself what govt healthcare would really be like. Please don't just take the politician's word for it.

[BridgeTroll]

Thanks for the very personal post... I hope your Canadian relatives get better.

[fsu813]

individual anecdotes can be exchanged all day.........the numbers don't lie. (ie, cost per patient, healthiness, lifespan, etc). Guess who comes out on top?