Where are the Mall's PART TWO, Our missing downtown...

[Jason]

^ Agree Lake.  LaVilla and Brooklyn are in the shape they are in because of going for the "next big thing". 

That said, an emphasis on bringing residential options to the core with either tax incentives or cheap property all while adhereing to a strict urban overlay is paramount.  The retail and entertainment will follow.

[Ocklawaha]

Don't think we should write off the OKC canal walk so easily, they simply got a couple of these make or break items and tons of mom and pop filled in the gaps. Couldn't we create a similar formula when the government is handing out stimulus bucks? Seems to me we could get parts of such a scheme funded from Washington? Like I said, it doesn't HAVE to be Ikea, but things with the same magnetic attraction, certainly if we approached this from a Walkable-Transit Oriented-Showpiece point we could get a City generator going. Anyone old enough to remember the Landing when it opened? Everyone in town went again and again for the top notch stores... But oops, we forgot the anchors... Oops, forgot parking.... Oops, forgot the Transit.... Oops, forgot we are a metro of 1.2 Million... Oops... Oops...Oops.... Now the whole damn place smells like piss.

OCKLAWAHA

[Traveller]

I'd like to see a full-sized IMAX theater downtown, like the one at the World Golf Hall of Fame.  The ones at the malls are just converted normal theaters.  As more and more action movies are shot with IMAX cameras (e.g. Dark Knight, Transformers 2), I think suburbanites would choose to come downtown on a Friday or Saturday night to catch a flick rather than drive all the way to IGP.

If need be, the theater can be connected to a new (and larger) maritime museum, whose star attraction would be that proposed Navy warship.

An ESPNZone downtown might work as well.

[copperfiend]

Like the IMAX idea. I have been to the Science Museum in Norfolk. It has an attached IMAX.

[thelakelander]

How much should the city pay to attract IMAX, an aquarium, IKEA or "fill in the blank project here"?  Atlanta's new aquarium was a result of a $200 million donation from a group of Atlanta-based corporations led by Home Depot.  Oklahoma City's Bricktown did not occur over night.  It was a decade in the making and could only be funded with the city approving a one-cent sales tax in 1993 to pay for it.  Furthermore, Bricktown is nice, but from aerials it appears like it is something that focuses in on itself and has limited connectivity with Oklahoma City's neighborhoods to the south and west, due to rail lines and expressways.

Locally, the Mayor has just announced a plan to increase the millage rate by 1.2 mils to help deal with a $65 million dollar budget shortfall next year.  Our city has series budget issues.  In addition, Jacksonville also suffers from being too spread out.  Not only are we spread out sprawl wise, but due to decades of senseless demolition, the urban core as well.  No matter how good an individual project may be, if we want true vibrancy we need to find a way to connect our isolated existing destinations, dense neighborhoods and major development sites with something that will spur compact infill walkable development in between them.  We have to make it a priority to get the most out of the limited funds we have.  We have to use them in a way that pays for improvement, plus spurs additional new development. 

We can invest in isolated big ticket projects like Metropolitan Park or hand millions in incentives to build things like aquariums, theaters and department stores, that otherwise would not be viable in our current market.  Nevertheless, despite costing taxpayers hundreds of millions to build them, they will still be isolated developments in a spread out urban core. 

For example, redeveloping Metropolitan Park won't help the Landing or Downtown business owners.  Giving IKEA incentives to come to Brooklyn won't spur redevelopment in the Cathedral District or down Main Street in Springfield.  Paying +$100 million for an aquarium at the Shipyards won't send more pedestrians to RAM, Five Points or spur infill housing in LaVilla.

I'm not saying we should not take advantage of one trick ponies when the opportunity comes along, but I am saying that they should not be our top priority for urban redevelopment and revitalization.  If we can find a way to spend half the money it would take for a one trick pony to connect our urban districts and major development sites with fixed transit first, the ponies will have a greater chance of success down the road.  Those ponies will also have a better chance of being funded by private investment as opposed to needing public incentives to break even.

[77danj7]

"I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)"

When you think about it...The Landing almost has a nice toilet seat shape!

[Ocklawaha]

How much should the city pay to attract IMAX, an aquarium, IKEA or "fill in the blank project here"?  Atlanta's new aquarium was a result of a $200 million donation from a group of Atlanta-based corporations led by Home Depot.  Oklahoma City's Bricktown did not occur over night.  It was a decade in the making and could only be funded with the city approving a one-cent sales tax in 1993 to pay for it.  Furthermore, Bricktown is nice, but from aerials it appears like it is something that focuses in on itself and has limited connectivity with Oklahoma City's neighborhoods to the south and west, due to rail lines and expressways.

I'm not saying we should not take advantage of one trick ponies when the opportunity comes along, but I am saying that they should not be our top priority for urban redevelopment and revitalization.  If we can find a way to spend half the money it would take for a one trick pony to connect our urban districts and major development sites with fixed transit first, the ponies will have a greater chance of success down the road.  Those ponies will also have a better chance of being funded by private investment as opposed to needing public incentives to break even.

Agreed, but now you've brought us back to the lines in my original post, TRANSIT! We must have fixed route attractive transit. Step two is to persue a group of major attractors. Get them into the Transit plans and Riverwalk, McCoys Creekwalk, Hogans Creek redevelopment etc..

I was in OKC when the Bricktown thing went down, BTW, there are no neighborhoods to the South, with or without I-40. This was once a grain loading area and major junction of southwestern rail lines. The old Rock Island Mainline ran west from here to connect with California. When the Rock went belly up in the 1980's miles of OKC became a prairie ruins within a city. If you can imagine the old JEA southbank site when the tracks were still in place stretching for miles and miles, that's what they have to deal with. West of Bricktown is well connected, in the mid 1900's the Santa Fe Railroad was built on a miles long elevated viaduct, all major streets and walkways are bridged, so while it might look like the Great Wall of Oklahoma, it's really quite fluid.

OCKLAWAHA

[JaxNative68]

F the malls!  Rebuild real buildings in Downtown Jax!

[copperfiend]

I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)

It is in bad shape.

[CrysG]

Maybe we can make the Landing look like.....say......this

http://www.harborplace.com/html/

[Ocklawaha]

"I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)"

When you think about it...The Landing almost has a nice toilet seat shape!

So what are they using to clean the elevators and toilets in this place? Is it one and the same? Sure smells like it!

F the malls!  Rebuild real buildings in Downtown Jax!

We're not talking about building malls in downtown. We are tossing out ideas for things (sometimes found in or around malls) that could go into downtown, as themed, stand alone Transit Development, which would help jump start our city core. It's an exercise in idea creation.

I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)

It is in bad shape.

I'd love to know who the genius is that designed that 4' walkway between the center stage and the Main Street Bridge? I'm telling you if we ever have a disaster in the west side of the landing the east side will become a killing zone like the infamous Copacabana fire. Somebody knock out that railing and widen that walk! Fire Chief? Are you watching this?

OCKLAWAHA

[grange78]

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?  Impressive retail developments, large entertainment complexes, inexpensive & plentiful residential complexes will all impact the core in their own right.  But the path to urban infill is jobs.  The city leaders need to push, push, push for companies to locate their offices downtown. Consider if Merrill Lynch, BofA, and BCBS all had located in downtown Jax?  There are over 110,000 daytime office jobs with the Gate Parkway area.  ML, BofA, and BCBS all built multi-structure campuses to accomodate their staff.  Imagine if they spent those funds downtown, building single high-rises instead. Think Charlotte.

Whats done is done.  Moving forward, Jacksonville has a lot going for it: but we need leaders willing to start with the basics and build from scratch.  Get more white collar jobs to the core, and with visionary leaders, the rest will fall into place. 

[Jason]

Welcome Grange78

[thelakelander]

Welcome Grange78

Not everything in Charlotte is in Uptown.  Charlotte has a ton of jobs in the burbs as well.  


Southpark, an edge city in suburban Charlotte

Nashville is another similar sized city with a vibrant downtown core and major suburban office parks that rival Jax's Gate Parkway area.  Franklin, TN comes to mind.  After years of discussion, I'm sold that for urban Jax to prosper, implementing a fixed transit system to reconnect the isolated core neighborhoods into one large district is key.

Imagine being able to live in Springfield and work in Riverside without the use of a car.  Imagine being able to live in Brooklyn and eat or shop at San Marco Square without the use of a car?  Imagine being able to stay in the Cathedral District and visit RAM without a car.  What I'm describing is a sustainable urban environment that would be unique to this area and that could not be copied anywhere within the First Coast.  An actual vibrant walkable city within Duval County.

Even in DT's current state, it has something like 55,000 office workers within DVI's boundaries.  If you include nearby urban districts you can add Shands, St. Vincents, Swisher, FCCJ, EWC and a ton of other major employers to the list.  The one good thing urban Jax has going for it is that you don't have to start from scratch.  While a significant portion of the core has been demolished, it was so dense at one point that we still have a good set of bones that are in place, alive and kicking.  One thing that Charlotte is proving is that those who fill white collar jobs embrace fixed mass transit.  Visionary leaders also do as well.   Find a way to link the remaining assets the urban core has left, which will help fill in the gaps along those transit spines and the rest will absolutely fall into place.

[Ocklawaha]

Grange78, Couldn't agree more, just another concept for this idea catching thread. We all wish the City had done something brilliant to attract those companies into downtown. CSX also has offices all over town, wouldn't a cool 40 floor CSX building look good?

But how?

Incentives are great as far as they go, but they usually come with a clock attached to them and run dry after a few years.

SO?

Excellent fixed route transit draws companies like flies to honey. The Skyway is a start, but not as long as it's known as the local failure to conceive, complete and compete, it won't do. Streetcars have the highest attraction rate. But transit alone won't work unless the whole concept is anchored to parking and release of parking demands on new downtown venues. In other words, build on one of our "garage connected" fixed transit lines, and you don't have to build the 500 space lot provided the employees get transit-garage passes in the deal. Don't think it will work? Look at Charlotte!

Meanwhile we have 4 complete bombed out nuke zones downtown, Brooklyn, La Villa, JEA lot, Shipyards lot, and Ooh! one of them is the most dangerous place on earth! LOL.

OCKLAWAHA