How important is the core?

[fsu813]

i'm a social worker, persay, and used to work with that kind of population....though not in Jax. the only reason why they are all downtown is because of proximity to one another. it's advantagous for each organization to be close to other similar organizations, which are pretty much all downtown.

[heights unknown]

i'm a social worker, persay, and used to work with that kind of population....though not in Jax. the only reason why they are all downtown is because of proximity to one another. it's advantagous for each organization to be close to other similar organizations, which are pretty much all downtown.

Yeah, but they are slowly getting away from that because of public pressure, and, City and County Governments are bending to those pressures; that used to be norm, for all the orgs to be together, not for convenience, but mostly because the majority of the homeless always congregated or "hung out" downtown.

Heights Unknown

[heights unknown]

So heights what if anything do we do about the negative image of so many in need of social services downtown. I do not want to neglect them but I hate to give up the image of the Urban core.

Please refer to my post to "Zoo."  This will give you great insight and education regarding what social agencies, City/County Government, and others should do.

Heights Unknown

[BridgeTroll]

Great discussion... I certainly have learned a lot... both from Zoo and H.U.

[zoo]

we must attack the root cause or causes of homelessness, and not provide "nickel and dime" temporary "band aid" services.  Nickel and dime services only give a temporary band aid help and does not treat and/or eradicate the problem that causes homelessness.

So how many needy persons has your organization converted into tax-paying, contributing citizens? How does that number compare to the number of how many you have assisted (conversion rate)? My intent is not to offend with this comment, but I'll be surprised if your org, or any others in Jax, actually track this statistic -- too risky in the event the the type of assistance being provided doesn't work. And if it isn't tracked, your org can't even measure delivery on its stated objectives.

There is as much accountability tracking for orgs like yours as there is accountability tracking for those you assist -- not much.

(though the economy is bad and the state/federal governments have basically shut off the financial spigot, the money comes from somewhere, sometimes from unanticipated sources or resources, so people still have hearts)

There's more of that convincing that a person must "level the field" if they get to claim the morality of "having a heart." It's working in Jax, so may as well keep saying it.

in our eyes we will never become obsolete

So the need just continues to exist, with no hope of diminishing or being completely solved? As I said, seems it is growing, and the existing economy is certainly a factor (refer to my original post re: "affordable housing" and the entitlement to comforting, welcoming, convenient environment -- maybe I should add "equal," though I think our Founding Fathers had the "pursuit" part in mind when that idea was conceived/codified).

We'll just have to disagree here, but need is also growing because organizations like yours aren't giving of heart, but are giving of hand -- hand outs, that will continue until some non-existent or undefined judgement mechanism deems the needy cured of neediness.

Once again, I say, WAKE UP JACKSONVILLE!

[heights unknown]

Zoo; I respect everything that you have said.  And you are right to some degree, and I am right in some degree. Most agencies don't keep "firm" statistics on who actually returns as normal tax paying citizens, clean, healthy, etc. back into society.  We do initiate followup on the individual to see how they are, how they are doing, whether they are progressing, etc.

Zoo; our job is to help the individuals; it is not up to us to ensure that they remain clean, sober, etc. for the rest of their lives.  What normally happens from time to time is the person relapses, comes back for help, and here we go again from square one, but, at least that type of person is crying out for help in order to not end up homeless as they were; then you have the person that relapses and returns back into the homeless population.  Zoo, there is no firm answer for all of your concerns; we as social agencies help people, that's what we do, we don't hold their hands, however, we do the best that we can with the available resources at our disposal (and there are many, funds permitting). I would totally agree with you 100% if I knew that we did nothing, but we work extremely hard to ensure that person gets the help that they need, whatever their request is; the problem is that the person's need goes much deeper than just food, clothing and shelter.  We tend to forget about the mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical aspect of those needs which are oft times missed by social agencies.

Then you have the other groups that are homeless who are mentally ill, disabled, etc.  These groups are much more prone to not go back to homelessness; the mentally ill or people who cannot care for themselves, yes, they will end up being cared for through government funded health and hospital institutions.  And those with illnesses that they can live with, will get benefits from the gov in order to care for themselves so they can continue to live.  I know you disagree with this Zoo, and you are possibly repulsed by it (as it sounds from your tone in your posts), but this is the way it is.

As a social service professional who helps others, and as a human being let me say this, and this is primarily directed, in all due respect of course, to you "Zoo:"

There are many people who are homeless or in need who didn't ask to be in that predicament.  The majority of them want out, but once you are in that vicious circle, it is hard to bounce back and return to normalcy for a variety of reasons in which if I listed them all or discussed them in length, I would be here all day writing.  Our social system to help the homeless and others in need in the USA is sorely lacking, and is basically unsympathetic and unsupportive. The main thing Zoo, and we social agencies are also guilty of this, is that we must attack the problems and social ills that cause homelessness in order to hopefully help those (those who choose to be helped and want help) who are crying and shouting out to return to normalcy.

I am a smart man Zoo, but I have made mistakes in my time as have you.  No one is perfect.  Not everyone is privvy enough to have a college degree or been reared in a rich or well to do family, or have had the privilege of living a "normal" life free of any infractions.  Not all people, or families for that matter are perfect and many things happen to innocent people.  Since I begun working in the social service arena I have found that 90% of the people that are homeless have some type of mental disorders stemming from a traumatic event that happened or has happened recently within their lives; and I am not giving excuses for them being homeless, I am giving you facts based on intake counseling, professional medical counseling and other factors and variables I and other social agencies use to assess why a person becomes homeless.

It is very easy for us to sit back and say this person is this, or he or she doesn't do that, or they don't ever want to amount to nothing, etc.  Don't ever think Zoo that nothing can ever happen to you where you will be in their place...as the old saying goes, "never say never." 

I respect your questions relative to what I and peer agencies in my field do, whether we are doing it right, whether we need to continue on doing what we do, whether we are effectively doing our job or whether what we do is relative, and whether we possibly are obsolete and need to close the doors.  I strongly defend myself against your questions based on what I see and experience from day to day.  I respectfully answer your questions based on facts and based on what I do from day to day.  I clearly understand that most of us, especially those of us who have been privvy or are privvy to a "good life" don't fully understand homelessness or those that become homeless and are even afraid of discussing it or seeing it before our very eyes, but folks, it is here and will always be here; you may not think so, but as long as there are humans, there will be some type of social ill or disgrace to be revealed before our eyes.

All of us would like a perfect world; but dream on.  From the beginning of time we have had the "haves" and the "have nots," and this still lingers in our modern age.  I too would love to see pristine, clean, and unlittered downtowns, urban cores, suburbs, and other areas without the homeless or the people in need; but I firmly believe that once a person falls into that group, the "Power that be" purposely ensures that they are placed before our eyes to see how we treat or mistreat them.  There is injustice and inequity in this present world system and always will be.  If we fail to try and fix it, or fail to offer help in any way, shape or form, not just temporary help (feed em and kick em out), or close our eyes or turn our head and hope the problem will go away, then the problem will probably always remain.  Even if we build shelters or programs that get to the root of the homeless problem, that is, get into that homeless person's head to see what makes them tick and why they are homeless, we will still have the homeless; not everyone is going to choose to return to normalcy; not everyone will be treated, cured, and remain normal, some will relapse and go back to being homeless, and others will relapse and return back to square one crying for help.

I didn't mean to single you out Zoo, but it is very easy for anyone to sit back and play "expert," or "professor" on issues like this.  The bottom line is this:  "If you've never been in that type position or in the place that a homeless or needy person has been, you will never, ever understand." And...no P.H.D. or Master's Degree in this world can prevent anyone from being homeless...ask a friend of mine that had a Master's Degree and became homeless and committed suicide.

I hope, and wish with all of my heart, that none of you in this forum, or in this world ever become homeless.  I was and I did, and Zoo, it was not by choice.  It doesn't matter how I became homeless or what event happened for me to become homeless; that is passe.  The truth of the matter is this:  Once I became homeless I wanted out, needed help, and no one wanted to help me.  In addition, the right type of help was not there, and after I became homeless it was extremely hard for me to get out of that vicious circle, but with the help of my Creator, I got out, and here I am to help others who might fall in that same predicament.

The social service field, which contains numerous resources to help those in need, basically and in general have got it all wrong.  I am crusading daily to peer agencies, and to mega agencies like United Way and Salvation Army to "get it right."  Remember, getting it right is to not give or issue temporary "band aid" help to people in need, we must extend (hopefully if they choose), permanent help and fixes to them in the way of attacking the reasons and root causes of why they are homeless.

All of you have a nice day; and again, Zoo I respect your assertions, opinions, comments, and investigatory prodding, and rightfully so with your challenging questions.  Homelessness is a huge problem; but if we the people, the government and agencies are not heading into the right direction regarding eradicating the problems that causes homelessness, homelessness will remain as is; and...homelessness may never go away completely, but we can do much more, as I iterated in the previous paragraphs, to reduce it to near nil proportions.

Heights Unknown

[heights unknown]

Great discussion... I certainly have learned a lot... both from Zoo and H.U.

And...you'll learn much much more; everything happens for a reason.

Heights Unknown

[BridgeTroll]

The questions Zoo asked are many I have also asked and I also search for answers to this problem.  I appreciate your answers H.U. and applaud your efforts.  Your victories or successes are measured by individuals helped and I am sure you see your fair share of them... Congratulations and thank you.  At the same time home and business owners probably do not see the individual successes and see a never ending problem.  I think you are right that the problem will never "go away" but governmental and social agencies need to see the problem through the eyes of the home and business owners also.

[heights unknown]

Zoo stated:

"We'll just have to disagree here, but need is also growing because organizations like yours aren't giving of heart, but are giving of hand -- hand outs, that will continue until some non-existent or undefined judgement mechanism deems the needy cured of neediness."

Disagree "Zoo," and am offended by your statement but respect it.

We ARE giving of heart, regardless of what you say or think.

That "undefined judgment mechanism" might soon cure all of us of any type of neediness; just look at our world...it is basically a mess and on the verge of unraveling.  

Be careful of what you say Zoo, it may come back to haunt you in some way, and I say that with all due respect to you and humility for what you believe.

I wish the best for you, and others in this world.  I would never wish anything contrary for anyone whether they be rich or poor.  

Have a great day Zoo.  If there is anything I can do for you, other than closing our doors or deeming ourselves obsolete, let me know.

Respectfully,

Heights Unknown

[heights unknown]

The questions Zoo asked are many I have also asked and I also search for answers to this problem.  I appreciate your answers H.U. and applaud your efforts.  Your victories or successes are measured by individuals helped and I am sure you see your fair share of them... Congratulations and thank you.  At the same time home and business owners probably do not see the individual successes and see a never ending problem.  I think you are right that the problem will never "go away" but governmental and social agencies need to see the problem through the eyes of the home and business owners also.

We do "Bridge Troll," believe me we do; but what can we do?  I guess we could move our agencies out west off of I-10 or in my case I-75, that is really what people want and this I respect; I too would like to see the homeless population off the streets, and doing something productive within their lives, but again, we do not live in a perfect world.

Thanks for your accolades.  I and peer agencies are doing the best we can for the homeless population and trying to not offend business Owners and others who are adversely affected by homelessness or our agencies being in their neighborhoods; believe me, we are trying to sort this mess out.

However, we can't do it alone; as the old saying goes, "It takes money to move mountains;" remember that.  Zoo stated that we always have "hand out" rather than "heart out" which is far from the truth.  Anyhoo, thanks again "Bridge Troll," and don't think we are not working on home or business owner's concerns or are not receptive to the needs and concerns of the public in that regard.

Heights Unknown

[zoo]

"If you've never been in that type position or in the place that a homeless or needy person has been, you will never, ever understand."

HU, please don't justify your argument by pretending to know me, my mental health, or the circumstances I am in or from which I've come. I do not believe providing assistance, in what seems to be the prevalent ways in Jacksonville, works. I think the environment downtown, and increasing rolls of "needy" prove that. In my neighborhood alone, these abuses of the social system are occurring:

1. Blight: Some economically-challenged persons (who, rightfully or wrongfully, I'll make the assumption are receiving some govt assistance), throw their trash on the ground to control the market -- that's right, these persons know that keeping an area blighted means those "investors" you've mentioned will provided them housing (albeit, unsuitable, imho) at cheap rents. Advantageous to me or no, I won't do this as it pollutes the earth and I'd never CHOOSE to live in my own garbage.

2. Food stamps: Some who receive them in this area do not use them for their own, or their children's sustenance. They have negotiated with restaurant owners to use them to purchase $x of food, then trade the $x of food for 1/2 $x of cash to be used for who knows what.

3. Subsidized housing: It is well known by many who receive housing vouchers that their landlords do not care to receive rent from them -- they are already receiving it from the subsidizing govt entity. These persons also know that criminals are not allowed in these housing sites, but that crime pays. This is why 90% of subsidized housing rolls are women, and 90% of arrests at subsidized housing sites are men. The women "rent", pay nothing, and charge their male friends who are involved in illegal earnings activities fees to reside at, or use, their housing.

4. Housing & Food: Teenagers are generally very "me" focused and irresponsible. Teen girls who are "in love" get pregnant on purpose because they know, once they do, they will receive housing and food assistance (and free pre-natal care, of course) because of the child. This also enables them to move out of mom's/grandma's house and "lay up" with their beau anytime they want without the interference of any authority figure.

These abuses are known and practiced. Face it, being "needy" is incentivized in this country, and even more so in this community, thanks to the pitches of organizations like yours. I don't doubt that there are legitimate needy who should have assistance -- but they are lost in our current system, which is beyond broken.

After living in Jax, and seeing very clearly that the programs that are supposed to be helping/improving the situation ARE NOT WORKING, my conversion from Christian moderate to Objectivist is pretty complete. IF I were ever to jump on the govt-as-keeper bandwagon, it would be in support of the social service orgs being regulated better and providing proof that their approaches are working -- that need is decreasing rather than increasing.

As a social service worker, you call that heartless. I call it practical and results-oriented. When your org or any other has proven this, and only then, would I give a dime to support your efforts. As you've stated, you'll keep giving your kind of assistance, even if it doesn't have conclusive results, until the money stops coming in.

WAKE UP JACKSONVILLE!

[BridgeTroll]

Perhaps the question of homelessness that Zoo is questioning is why this problem has only gotten worse over the past decades.  This surely was NOT a problem of this magnitude prior to Johnson's "War on poverty".  The problem seems to have gotten worse.  It is WAY to easy to blame our current economy... but the problem of homelessness, vagrancy, etc in the city cores has increased even during economic boom times.  I used to live in "Silicon Vally" during that particular boom... vagrancy persisted and I dare say increased because of the money flowing through the region.  Zoo's and my question is why?  Are we somehow enabling this behavior?  Are the very services designed to help those down on their luck producing "social rejects" incapable of, or unwilling to, provide for themselves...

[heights unknown]

"If you've never been in that type position or in the place that a homeless or needy person has been, you will never, ever understand."

HU, please don't justify your argument by pretending to know me, my mental health, or the circumstances I am in or from which I've come. I do not believe providing assistance, in what seems to be the prevalent ways in Jacksonville, works. I think the environment downtown, and increasing rolls of "needy" prove that. In my neighborhood alone, these abuses of the social system are occurring:

1. Blight: Some economically-challenged persons (who, rightfully or wrongfully, I'll make the assumption are receiving some govt assistance), throw their trash on the ground to control the market -- that's right, these persons know that keeping an area blighted means those "investors" you've mentioned will provided them housing (albeit, unsuitable, imho) at cheap rents. Advantageous to me or no, I won't do this as it pollutes the earth and I'd never CHOOSE to live in my own garbage.

2. Food stamps: Some who receive them in this area do not use them for their own, or their children's sustenance. They have negotiated with restaurant owners to use them to purchase $x of food, then trade the $x of food for 1/2 $x of cash to be used for who knows what.

3. Subsidized housing: It is well known by many who receive housing vouchers that their landlords do not care to receive rent from them -- they are already receiving it from the subsidizing govt entity. These persons also know that criminals are not allowed in these housing sites, but that crime pays. This is why 90% of subsidized housing rolls are women, and 90% of arrests at subsidized housing sites are men. The women "rent", pay nothing, and charge their male friends who are involved in illegal earnings activities fees to reside at, or use, their housing.

4. Housing & Food: Teenagers are generally very "me" focused and irresponsible. Teen girls who are "in love" get pregnant on purpose because they know, once they do, they will receive housing and food assistance (and free pre-natal care, of course) because of the child. This also enables them to move out of mom's/grandma's house and "lay up" with their beau anytime they want without the interference of any authority figure.

These abuses are known and practiced. Face it, being "needy" is incentivized in this country, and even more so in this community, thanks to the pitches of organizations like yours. I don't doubt that there are legitimate needy who should have assistance -- but they are lost in our current system, which is beyond broken.

After living in Jax, and seeing very clearly that the programs that are supposed to be helping/improving the situation ARE NOT WORKING, my conversion from Christian moderate to Objectivist is pretty complete. IF I were ever to jump on the govt-as-keeper bandwagon, it would be in support of the social service orgs being regulated better and providing proof that their approaches are working -- that need is decreasing rather than increasing.

As a social service worker, you call that heartless. I call it practical and results-oriented. When your org or any other has proven this, and only then, would I give a dime to support your efforts. As you've stated, you'll keep giving your kind of assistance, even if it doesn't have conclusive results, until the money stops coming in.

WAKE UP JACKSONVILLE!

I won't argue with you, and, I am not justifying anything I'm giving you facts.

I think you need to get a "dose" of homelessness, neediness, or even get sent to a social service boot camp (if one existed) for 3 months or more catering and servicing the homeless and needy so you will understand a little better (a spanking if you will).

One more thing:  "Parents can tell a child a thousand times not to touch a hot iron, but the child will not fully understand the iron is hot or why the Parents are telling them not to touch it unless they physically touch it, get burned and see for themselves." - Heights Unknown June 2009

.......And the same is true with homelessness!

Heights Unknown

[heights unknown]

Perhaps the question of homelessness that Zoo is questioning is why this problem has only gotten worse over the past decades.  This surely was NOT a problem of this magnitude prior to Johnson's "War on poverty".  The problem seems to have gotten worse.  It is WAY to easy to blame our current economy... but the problem of homelessness, vagrancy, etc in the city cores has increased even during economic boom times.  I used to live in "Silicon Vally" during that particular boom... vagrancy persisted and I dare say increased because of the money flowing through the region.  Zoo's and my question is why?  Are we somehow enabling this behavior?  Are the very services designed to help those down on their luck producing "social rejects" incapable of, or unwilling to, provide for themselves...

In all due respect and humility Bridge Troll, it doesn't matter how much worse it is now than 30, 40 or eons ago.  The fact is, the problem is here, hasn't gone away, hasn't gotten any better, and there are agencies and people that are trying their hardest and damnest to do something about it.

Most agencies are trying their best and that's the best we can do; some agencies more so than others.

We could go round and round in circles with Zoo trying to find good and bad reasons to close the doors of social agencies, and find a justifiable reason to do away with people who are homeless (let's not get rid of the  problem, let's get rid of the people with the problem).

This is my last post regarding this subject as I am basically "off topic" relative to the central topic of this thread.  There are numerous other reasons why the urban core or downtown if you will is not successful, or why it is or is not successful, and homelessness and the homeless is just one of them.

Thanks Zoo, thanks Bridge Troll.

Heights Unknown

[heights unknown]

Bridge Troll stated:  Zoo's and my question is why?  Are we somehow enabling this behavior?  Are the very services designed to help those down on their luck producing "social rejects" incapable of, or unwilling to, provide for themselves...

Heights Unknown Answers for the last time on this subject:  Read my detailed book length post again, the one mostly directed at Zoo; my answers, facts and opinions are in there; read it with a fine tooth comb.  Don't just skim over it or speed read through it, study it and you will find the answer to your question(s).

Heights Unknown