Re-evaluating the Skyway

[thelakelander]

Lake and Ock, if the solution pictured below could be implemented, streetcars could easily cross the FEC rails.  Any reason this won't work?

The FEC is too busy for an at-grade railroad crossing.  Your streetcar system would be totally unreliable due to frequent blockage by freight trains coming in and out of Bowden Yard.  This type of crossing would be an option for a seldom used freight line.

[stjr]

Lake and Ock, if the solution pictured below could be implemented, streetcars could easily cross the FEC rails.  Any reason this won't work?

The FEC is too busy for an at-grade railroad crossing.  Your streetcar system would be totally unreliable due to frequent blockage by freight trains coming in and out of Bowden Yard.  This type of crossing would be an option for a seldom used freight line.

OCK: Beyond that your latest photo post shows a classic railroad diamond, why would this at grade crossing work any better then JTA's PCT did? It would still have to wait on the train all the time, meaning no schedule regularity at all. The FEC trains are transfers on this segment and do NOT run on a regular schedule... (Oh I know, so go ahead and call them over at Bowden Yard).

Hmmm... Lake and Ock, why, then, doesn't that same FEC freight schedule serve as an obstacle for Commuter Rail proposed to operate on these same tracks?  As to streetcars, if they ran in a continuous loop (no schedule other than a target of x minutes in headways) all day long, what would be the big deal if they wait 5 minutes for a train to pass?  After all, buses (and ambulances for Baptist Hospital) face this same issue and I don't see us giving up on them.  As an aside, I haven't observed FEC trains actually stopping at these crossings with any regularity like they do at the Stockton Street crossings.

OCK: Sorry if I'm a bit harsh tonight, blame it on heavy medical tests starting early tomorrow morning somewhere in the Southside... If I'm still alive at 10 or 11am I'll jump back on.

Ock, I have a thick skin.  I can take a healthy discussion.  Speaking of healthy, your personal health is far more important than any discussions here and should be a reminder of keeping things in perspective.  Good luck with your tests and hope all goes well.  See ya' back soon.

[thelakelander]

Hmmm... Lake and Ock, why, then, doesn't that same FEC freight schedule serve as an obstacle for Commuter Rail proposed to operate on these same tracks?

Because the actual FEC line would have to be upgraded and expanded to increase track capacity.  In other words, additional track running parallel to the FEC would need to be installed.  This is one of the main reasons we should push for an Amtrak expansion between Jax and Miami.  By doing that, Amtrak would cover a significant portion of the extra track infrastructure for passenger rail, thus reducing the local need to do this.


An example of increasing track capacity would be 3 or 4 tracks instead of the two currently in place.  Not adding more at-grade crossings.

As to streetcars, if they ran in a continuous loop (no schedule other than a target of x minutes in headways) all day long, what would be the big deal if they wait 5 minutes for a train to pass?  After all, buses (and ambulances for Baptist Hospital) face this same issue and I don't see us giving up on them.  As an aside, I haven't observed FEC trains actually stopping at these crossings with any regularity like they do at the Stockton Street crossings.

Ock can provide his answer, but I've already stated that I'm not a fan of isolated transit components or loops.  Duplication means extra money spent in one neighborhood at the expense of another.  Whatever we should do should tie in nicely with the rest of an regional integrated transit system.  I don't think a streetcar loop around San Marco, that does not connect with any other form of rail, makes any kind of sense.  I also do not believe that FEC would ever go for allowing two streetcar at-grade crossings on their main line. 

[Charles Hunter]

The old PCT San Marco Trolley operated on that premise - no published schedule, just the goal of a bus every X minutes.  But with the FEC blocking the San Marco, Prudential, and Hendricks crossings for more than 5 minutes at a time (and yes, they do park there sometimes), schedule reliability was shot to hell, as Ock said.

[stjr]

Because the actual FEC line would have to be upgraded and expanded to increase track capacity.  In other words, additional track running parallel to the FEC would need to be installed. 

Lake, adding the extra track to FEC would require expansion or rebuilding of its St. Johns River bridge, would it not?  This would be a huge project.  Also, does FEC have enough right of way through San Marco and Downtown to accommodate 3 or 4 tracks?

By the way, the Mayor was on WJCT/NPR 89.9 this morning saying the City does not have any plans to expand the $ky-high-way.  When it comes to mass transit, they believe there are better options.  And, Shwaz, I guess I am not the lone crier in Amsterdam you make me out to be. 

Mayor Peyton is on a roll with me: Likes JEA and Shipyards in public hands, working on reigning in police-fire pensions, and now on same page regarding the $ky-high-way.  Now, if we could just stop that Courthouse.....   

[thelakelander]

Lake, adding the extra track to FEC would require expansion or rebuilding of its St. Johns River bridge, would it not?  This would be a huge project.  Also, does FEC have enough right of way through San Marco and Downtown to accommodate 3 or 4 tracks?

Yes, commuter rail will be a big investment, but cheaper than streetcar or skyway per mile.  It will reduce in cost if Amtrak brings service to the FEC, because Amtrak will fund a portion of the infrastructure needs.  Also, passenger trains will not require an expansion of the St. Johns River bridge and the FEC ROW is 100'.  That's more than enough for additional track. 

[Shwaz]

By the way, the Mayor was on WJCT/NPR 89.9 this morning saying the City does not have any plans to expand the $ky-high-way.  When it comes to mass transit, they believe there are better options.  And, Shwaz, I guess I am not the lone crier in Amsterdam you make me out to be.   

Too bad for you he can't be mayor forever...

[Coolyfett]

Ohh the SkyWay...
I remember when they opened it, i was a youngster and it looked like the greatest thing ever. After living in DC and Chicago the skyway didn't look all that awesome. It would be great to have an "L" or train transit..but realistically i don't think it would be greatly appreciated or used. Maybe if they extended it to just the urban areas (i.e. Shands, 5 points, and further into San Marco) and use the rest of the money to improve the bus system. I think if the bus system was quicker, ran more often and longer people wouldn't be so reluctant to ride.

JTA should bring the Skyway to Riverside, San Marco & Springfield and then stop there. They could run all the (southside, northside & westside) buses to each terminal station, instead of bringing them downtown. The buses would have less ground to cover and routes would be ran quicker.

On another note, its lame when people can not communicate on a thread using "fake lawyer" lingo. Just speak regular American English. I know there are a lot lawyers that hang on the site, but some of you are not lawyers lol so stop, you make yourself look corny lol.

I have a dumb question, those Hilton Hotels are they very far from Kings Avenue Station?? When they were building them they didn't look that far away. Just curious. Wondering if those are the only set of hotels near a transit station besides whats close to Riverplace Station.

This topic is interesting, few of my friends here in GA complain about Atlanta not having enough transit...they got 38 stations up here and they are always saying Chicago this, New York that, Their complaints are funny, they may not realize how other cities want more transit options as well. Jacksonville doesn't have to do everything at once, but pick a line and start something. East, Riverside or San Marco.

[Coolyfett]

We take those same buses and now run them from the nearest Rapid Transit Station to the local community, and we could double or triple the service with almost no effort. Wouldn't 20 minute headways beat the heck out of what we now have?

You get it my friend! Rock on. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

LOL is there an echo in here lol?? Ock I don't think you are a kook, someone emailed me a link to what General Motors, Firestone Tires and Co did to tram organizations across the country, how they got that law passed where Tram companies and Electric companies could not be under the same umbrella. They got convicted and only had to pay a 1 dollar fine. As a society we are still paying for that crime of greed. I remember you mentioning it a while back, I kinda thought you were fabricating that story....sadly it really did happen. Wonder what problems we wouldn't have if not for scam. 

[BridgeTroll]

Am visiting Atlanta for a few days... bought a 3 day MARTA pass and am attempting to use public transit the entire stay.  MARTA is great but have put more than a few miles on my feet!

[Ocklawaha]

We take those same buses and now run them from the nearest Rapid Transit Station to the local community, and we could double or triple the service with almost no effort. Wouldn't 20 minute headways beat the heck out of what we now have?

You get it my friend! Rock on. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

LOL is there an echo in here lol?? Ock I don't think you are a kook, someone emailed me a link to what General Motors, Firestone Tires and Co did to tram organizations across the country, how they got that law passed where Tram companies and Electric companies could not be under the same umbrella. They got convicted and only had to pay a 1 dollar fine. As a society we are still paying for that crime of greed. I remember you mentioning it a while back, I kinda thought you were fabricating that story....sadly it really did happen. Wonder what problems we wouldn't have if not for scam. 

Your right my friend, no good deed goes unpunished! HA! Actually a few of the OIL, TIRE, and GM boys got more then a slap. The infamous photo I posted once that shows a flaming streetcar while two of the highway good ol' boys exchanging a huge check, standing in front of the fire. Both of those boys got prison time. If memory serves me they went up on conspiracy charges in Ohio and the big tire man got 15 years. California also filed and won legal action in it's own cases, but the fines were something like $5,000 per official. Meanwhile they trashed 1,200 miles of interurban (today's LRT) that blanketed the Los Angeles basin. They also got the YELLOW CARS of downtown Los Angeles, a huge narrow gauge system of electric trolleys that looked similar to the San Francisco Cable Cars.

Our own local "incentive" was GM gave us a "exclusive" new type of parts and distribution center, in exchange for selling our streetcars to their Motor Transit Company, which was owned by NATIONAL CITY LINES, owned by the conspirators.  Down in Tampa, nearly 10 years to the day, the streetcars quit rolling and the company actually didn't sell to conspiracy... BUT...Every city councilman got a brand new LaSalle (a sister of Cadillac) Automobile from GM.

The highway lobby was dirty then, and the courts proved it. They are no cleaner today, witness Gate, FDOT, TRI-RAIL, Sunrail, Skyway etc... We even have enemys of public transportation on this site, just follow the money.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

THE GREAT TRANSIT CONSPIRACY:

By the later years of the 1910s, demand for automobiles was basically flat. Ford’s Model T, first produced in 1908, had basically saturated the market (it would continue to be produced unitl 1927, by which time advances in technology made it obsolete). 1 There had been nothing in the automotive market to really fire the imagination since the introduction of the Ford-Edison partnership that promised an affordable battery-powered electric car, and public “recharge stations” to run them with. Henry Ford and Thomas Edison even went so far as to purchase Detroit Electric, a maker of battery-powered automobiles. This remarkable development captured the imagination of the popular press at the time, and with it, the attention of the public, and the executives of General Motors.

http://www.streetcarpress.com/essays/great_trillion-dollar_swindle.html

OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

I never could understand why people in Jacksonville hate rail so much? Starting to think it is an american hatred for trains. 8 Stations for 1.3 million people. Maybe America needs higher gas prices again, to get the train snowball rolling.

[Coolyfett]

I'm Originally From Jax and I'm moving back in 3 years. But have not lived in Jax from 25 years, I guess this means now that I'm somewhat of an outsider now. So, here my thought on extending the system. If they would just extend this thing to some places that matter... I.E. The sports complex, Metro park and San Marco. You would be surprised how fast ridership would go up. Every time I'm in Jax with someone new, I have to bring them on the skyway. Everyone Loves it and wishes they had one in their city! Jax HAS one, Just make it GO SOMEWHERES! Just my 2 cents!

Hemming Plaza
FSCJ
Main Library
Mosh
Friendship Park
Hilton Hotels
Covention Center
Treaty Oak Park
The Landing?
Times Union Center?


All these places are connected by the Skyway. Did I leave anything off?

It would great if the SPorts Complex, Five Points & San Marco square was on the list.

[JeffreyS]

^the strand
the Penisular
Mortons
Ruth's Chris
River City Brewing
Sherwoods
Baptist Hospital
Prudential
The omni
AT&T building
Sun Trust Building
Gulf life tower
BOA tower
Modis Building
2 park and ride locations
The Westin (south bank is that right?)