Mayor, other leaders brace for conflict over police-fire pension

[BridgeTroll]

The pension funds are paid out during retirement correct?  They are most assuradly not overpaid... just overpaid in retirement.  Are we not asking the coming social security generations to take cutbacks in benefits because the current system cannot support future benefits?  Same ought to apply to the police and fireman pensions... either you cut benefits, raise taxes or the future pensioners pay more in while working.

[Sigma]

Sigma.

The political discussion should be held in national politics.

Thats why we have the thread.

Im sorry that you hate new york.  Perhaps you could do your part by only eating Pace salsa.

In the meantime, perhaps we could stay on track about the Jacksonville Pension fund.

My apologies Stephen, but I do see where the first person to start comparisons to national debate is you. 

The biggest problem with the Pension is actually more similar to the problem that the Bush years fueled with Wall Street.

And who said I hated New York?  I do hate driving there though.  Those folks will scare the hell out of you.

[Sigma]

BT.  Here is an idea.

Stop sprawling.

Cut the development of the police force into a paramilitary force in the bud.

Adopt the neighborhood policing strategy that served this country and so many others so well for centuries.

Stop sending thirty cars to bust teenagers smoking pot and drinking beer at their apartments in the riverside.

Stop filling the jail with late insurance payment drivers and pot smokers.

Stop hopping into the helicopter everytime that it looks like a crackhead chase through springfield.

Do you really need 3 cop cars to pull over a speeder?

Stop investing in sprawling suburbs that bankrupt our cities ability to adequately patrol their area.

These are all things that would drastically cut the amount of money necessary to keep the city safe.

But even so, hundreds of millions in shorfall?
seriously?
how many cops would that put on the street for a year?

Stephen, you know as much about the job of a police officer and how to run a department than you do about the military.

I guess until you get shot in the face by a crack head you just pulled over, you will keep asserting your arrogant faux knowledge about how law enforcement works.

Maybe you could send out a letter to all the parasites who call 911 for a free ride to the emergency room for an "anxiety attack" to obtain the free meal.  That will surely reduce the large costs to our emergency services.

I do agree with you on the suburbs though.

[BridgeTroll]

I agree with stopping the sprawl but it is here and they have a right to police protection as much as the core.  Cities have nearly always had a police force of some kind in this country... we will not self police ourselves. thirty cars to bust teenagers smoking pot or drinking is an exaggeration.  No need for a helicopter for a crackhead but do you not want one for a armed fugitive or violent offender?  Never seen three cars pull over a speeder either... but I have seen three cars when the car is stolen or the driver has a warrent.

Seems your argument is that we have too many police and firemen to pay pensions to.  I think we probably need more of each but the pension fund benefits growth needs to stop or be funded with more contributions by the individual police and firemen.  Or an increase in taxes.  This is one area where the union has garnered benefits for their constituents to the detriment of the rest of the community...

[Sigma]

I haven't been on the force Stephen, and that's the difference between you and me - I don't make claims to know how they should run their department - you did.

But I served in the military for over 20 years - and your experience?

And I've been around Springfield for a lot longer than you think I have.  And spot lights and a video camera after calling the non-emergency number did wonders to get rid of the dealers and prostitutes on my corner.

And who said I was against health care? 

Cheers

[BridgeTroll]

http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/ron_littlepage/2009-01-11/story/demands_of_city_pension_funds_are_booming

Demands of city pension funds are booming
Story updated at 12:45 AM on Tuesday, Jan. 13, 2009

Here's another shining example of just how silly things can get in Jacksonville.

The police union threw a party last week for the newly elected public defender, Matthew Shirk, to celebrate his taking office.

Hold on. It gets even sillier.

Shirk went.

So much for the healthy adversarial relationship between the Public Defender's Office and the police that is needed to ensure that people the police are accusing of crimes get fair representation.

But what the heck. That went out the window during the campaign when Shirk promised the police union neither he nor his attorneys would accuse police officers of lying.

Uh, but what if they are? It's been known to happen.

While that cozy relationship and the fact that the new state attorney, Angela Corey, is the darling of the Fraternal Order of Police will impact the legal system, another example of the police union's clout could end up bankrupting the city.

The Police and Fire Pension Fund has long been considered the third-rail of Jacksonville politics.

Mess with that dream of a deal and you're dead.

The problem, as I've written before, is the cost to taxpayers is out of control.

It's not just me saying that. Mayor John Peyton's chief administrative officer, Alan Mosley, outlined the pension dilemma in a memo he sent to City Council members earlier this month.

The city will have to put $56.5 million into the Police and Fire Pension Fund this fiscal year plus another $21.4 million into two other pension plans covering correctional officers and the city's general employees.

"Despite these significant contributions, however, all three plans maintain sizeable unfunded liabilities within them," Mosley wrote.

As of September 2007, the latest estimate available showed that unfunded liability for the Police and Fire Pension Fund alone was $534 million. And that was before the stock market collapsed.

"It is projected that during the next 20-plus years, the city's contribution to the Police and Fire Pension Fund will increase nearly 180 percent, representing an unsustainable financial obligation," Mosley wrote.

That warning - "an unsustainable financial obligation" - can't be ignored.

Reform is a must, Mosley said, emphasizing the Mayor's Office "will not consider changes to the pension benefit for current employees."

That's only fair because promises have been made, but a change is needed for new hires.

The city simply can't afford to continue down the path it's on.

Private industry is abandoning defined benefit plans like the police have in favor of contribution plans such as a 401(k), if a retirement package is offered at all.

Will the City Council have the gumption to move in that more practical direction?

The debate will soon get under way. The FOP will be mightily opposed to any change. We will find out who else is in the police union's pocket.

ron.littlepage@jacksonville.com,

(904) 359-4284

[Sigma]

WOW BT - it seems that I've seen that phrase "unsustainable financial obligation" before. Ah yes, GM, Chrysler - but I just assumed it was the BUSH years! There you go with the apples and oranges again.

Good find.

[BridgeTroll]

Thanks for the lesson... and I agree with the community policing concept.  I would love to see more cops walking a beat and getting to know the business owners and homeowners.  Perhaps on Segways rather than simply walking... but we would still need the same number of cops if not more... and we certainly have not really discussed fire protection.  Nobody argues that these services are needed or that they should be paid well.

The problem is funding the pension fund for when they are no longer protecting and serving.  The current union demanded and government relenting system is... UNSUSTAINABLE.

COJ must... cut benefits and/or add taxes, and /or the future pensioners must contribute more to their own retirement.

[BridgeTroll]

I agree... but if you are advocating using the money saved and dumping it into an unsustainable pension fund then I would have to disagree...   Because in a very short time you would be right back to where we are now...

[BridgeTroll]

I would propose that existing officers keep their current pensions but halt any and all increases in benefits.  New hires would get a reduced package to be negotiated with them contributing to a 401k or equivalent type account.  The union would have to work with the city to protect its members but also protect the city from unsustainable financial obligation.

[stjr]

I would propose that existing officers keep their current pensions but halt any and all increases in benefits.  New hires would get a reduced package to be negotiated with them contributing to a 401k or equivalent type account.  The union would have to work with the city to protect its members but also protect the city from unsustainable financial obligation.

I am hearing that reduced benefits for new hires is what the City will likely propose.  Of course, the Unions say they will have none of it per the quote in the newspaper, but, reality should set in and they need to be thankful for what they already have and not be greedy.  No one is forcing new hires to take the job.  They will take it because, even with a lowered pension benefit, it is still a fairly compensated position.

Community policing:  Can anyone say Andy Taylor, Sheriff of Mayberry?  He seemed to know how to handle each of his town's characters with just the right level of compassion and involvement! 

[BridgeTroll]

uninsured drivers are a HUGE overnight population in jail.
pot smoking, selling, decorating and growing.....really?
Strippers who show their nipples while fully grown men are consuming alchohol?  thats killer.  thanks.  I feel safer.
providing food and shelter to the homeless?   at a $750 a pop per arrest cost to the tax payer, thats freaking awesome.

Not sure uninsured drivers spend the night in jail... I don't know... perhaps they do.  The rest of your examples are fine with me.

And the sprawl component.
concentric tax districts.

At first glance this seems OK.  Concentric rings would not work but a layered tax approach may be doable beginning with the city limits prior to consolidation.  On the other hand... there are plenty of poor folk that this would hurt living out in the hinterlands because it is too costly to live closer to the core.

Community Policing.

Sounds good to me...   See how reasonable I am...

[stjr]

b]
And the sprawl component.[/b]
concentric tax districts.  The further you want to move away from density, then the higher your damn taxes should be if you want the city to foot the bill for your services.

This is an interesting concept, Stephen.  To be clear, I would charge based on zone density, rather than how far from downtown.  In 800 plus square miles, we do have pockets of density away from Downtown where efficiencies should be attainable.

I would envision something along the lines of x people per a given square mile is y $.  1/2x people is $2y.  1/4x people is $4y.  We could grid an area in square mile sectors.  This system should be applied State wide as it would also address the costs of urban sprawl and perhaps help to discourage it and encourage further density which may continue to drive such taxes down.  This proposal should cover police, fire, schools, utilities, public transit, road or other transportation systems, and anything else for which service costs are distance sensitive.  People shouldn't complain because there will be a clear and direct correlation with what they pay to what it costs. 

[NotNow]

SOOO much misinformation, I don't know where to begin. 

1. The 20% gauranteed required city contribution is a fabrication.  The actual city contribution is determined by mathematical formula and is based on other income to the pension fund.  The city has withheld the recommended payment several times in recent years taking what was known as a "holiday" from contribution.  In other words, they spent the money that was meant for the retirement of police and firefighters on something else.

2. The pension fund was created in the 1930's by the city and the state legislature.  ALL Florida Sheriff's Offices have a state retirement system.  Be honest, compare the retirement of Jacksonville Officers with those in Hillsboro, Orange, or Dade.  Jacksonville Officers have the least valuable system. 

3.  The benefits of the system are NOT increasing every year.  I believe that the last benefit increase was in 2004.  There are no proposed increases in benefits.  A Police Officer in Jax is required to have a Bachelors Degree.  They must complete another year of formal education and then four months of accompanied "on the street" training, followed by a year of probation in which they can be let go for any "cause" without recourse.  In my time on I have broken three broken bones, five or six sprained ankles, bruised up my knees bad enough over time to require surgeries, and suffered uncounted black eyes, swollen lips, and a sore old body.  Thank God I have never been shot, but I have heard bullets go by me and hit around me.  Others have not been so lucky.  For this, Officers start at about $34,000 and max out at about $65,000.  They will retire on about $39,000 a year at twenty years.  Outrageous, ain't it?

4.  Sigma was correct when he stated that Stephen knows nothing about either police work or the military.  I have corrected him many times on each of these statements but, as usual, the truth escapes him.  Lack of proof of insurance and even a suspended DL due to expired insurance is not an offense that JSO will put someone in jail for.  When a suspect is arrested for other charges AND has a suspended DL for insurance, then it is listed on their arrest docket, that's all.  The JSO encourages the use of NTA's for misdemeanors, but many are not eligible.  If you want to make marijuana legal then change the law, don't blame the police.  The Vice Unit struggles to monitor those organized crime sh%&holes we lovingly call "strip clubs".  The girls are given NTA's if they are eligible.  The Pearl and other similar actions did not include the use of the "SWAT team".  That was the DART Unit, a component of the community policing concept that all are so glowingly advocating.  Read a textbook.  The JSO has been using the community policing model since about 1995.  Jacksonville is FAR below the national standard in ratio of Officers per thousand in population.  Lets be honest again, look it up.  This causes Officers to be "stacked" with calls for service.  Driving from a domestic call to a disturbance to a juvenile thief.  To efficiently travel from call to call, they drive cars.  If you put Officers on foot, or Segways, or golf carts, you will have to hire many more Officers to cover the same ground. 

5.  The suburbs have been subsidizing the core for years.  Research the geographic location of crime in the city.  Research the deployment of Officers and their numbers in the different zones.  Then research the total tax reciepts from those same geo maps.  Tax the suburbs?  That has been going on for years. 

[NotNow]

Huh?  50% of city revenue (and the only revenue that can be "assigned" an area of the city) is property taxes.  Probably 75% of Police Officers (and 100% of the extra authorized anti crime initiative overtime) are assigned to the core.  Pull up a map of fire stations and look at the density of the stations in the core.  I don't know what the ratio of fire calls is between the core and the burbs, but ask any fireman what the two busiest stations are.  The property tax value in the suburbs exceeds that in the old city limits.  They pay more for less service.  (Ludicrous?  Really?  People talk like that?)

I am not sure where you were trying to go with the wealthier and better educated and where they live.

Just the statement:

"Except that we have to send cars out to their neighborhoods and hire extra guys to drive around on basically maintenance calls."

is .... um.... ludicrous?  Though the burbs probably get 25% of the service, they are certainly paying for it.  I'll just bet that the HALF of the city population that lives in the burbs would not characterize their Police calls as "basically maintenance calls".  You probably shouldn't either, it is wrong and (surprise) not based in fact.

I'm not sure what living in another city has to do with it,  but I have lived in other cities, countries, and continents.  And I have worked as a Police Officer in other cities as well.  And you apparently don't know how "it" is done, now or in the fifties.