Jacksonville Should Love A Streetcar: Ten Reasons

thelakelander · May 30, 2009, 02:54:16 AM

If they have the means but choose to use transit instead of purchasing a car, they would be still be choice riders.

mtraininjax · May 30, 2009, 06:39:08 AM

Lake - Sell this idea at the beaches. The announcement of the JTA to use the Beaches Trolley shows that there is a need for transportation up and down the beach. People use it. It is a densely populated area that would do well with a rail system. Besides, third street is limited to 35 MPH anyway, so the trolley system is a no-brainer there.

ralpho37 · May 30, 2009, 03:50:45 PM

A trolley system would be perfect at Jax Beach either along the oceanfront boardwalk or down 1st Street North. It would ease parking congestion and traffic in the area, benefiting businesses and making the area more pedestrian-friendly - definitely an economic booster for the area.

mtraininjax · May 31, 2009, 12:10:34 AM

Lake - No response, perfect opening to JTA, yet you want to run rails downtown? Why? What is up?

thelakelander · May 31, 2009, 12:21:38 AM

No response to what? A streetcar system at the beaches? Go for it. I believe it has been discussed on this site in the past by Ocklawaha.

As for me, if you're going to make an investment in rail, the initial investment should be made in a fashion that does the following:

1. Connects DT with dense residential neighborhoods
2. Accesses underutilized areas to spur dense infill development
3. Connects with other modes of transit at the proposed intermodal transportation center
4. Complements the skyway by feeding riders into it.
5. Should not break the bank or require raising taxes to implement or maintain annually.

Since my main position is to take advantage of rail as a redevelopment tool in the Urban Core, that should be more than enough to answer the question of why I prefer reconnecting Jacksonville's densest neighborhoods with fixed transit before building an isolated system at the beach.

Ocklawaha · May 31, 2009, 12:51:10 AM

Lake, I'll add to your last post by saying: having isolated or even independent systems at the Beach, STJTC and Downtown would not damage our odds of Mass Transit Development. Since Light Rail Transit and Streetcar can be interchangable (depending on construction). This just means as the system grows, many of the feeders would already be in place to create network.

OCKLAWAHA

zoo · May 31, 2009, 09:46:10 AM

QuoteHow about Jacksonville powering a new trolley system with the battery's from its new lithium ion battery factory and time it where both come on line at the same time. J-ville could be there first customer to show there support.

I don't mean to be a negative Ned, but an idea like this is far too innovative for the existing Jax power structure. Here are two un-verified bits of info that support that thought (and if someone wants to go verify or dis-credit, I welcome that):

1. I believe Paul Crawford of the JEDC has been looking into improving downtown's parking situation for at least the past 18 months (and probably more likely since the 2006 Task Force studies). I and others have personally sent to JEDC suggestions regarding an integrated fare/parking system, that links various modes of transit (including skyway, trolley and water, taxi for example), on-street parking and parking garages that can be deployed free/cheap because it uses revenue-sharing model.

So a visitor to Downtown would be able to park at a meter or a garage by swiping a pre-loaded card, use that same card to use the transit system, and re-load the card at Downtown retailers. Whatever unit the card is swiped through would automatically direct the revenue from the swipe to the appropriate accounts - some for city, some for private parking/transportation owner, and some for system supplier. No meter collection, no quarters, no human disbursement of revenue. The convenience and ease of this for the user seems very forward-thinking (at least imho).

Because of the Herculean coordination effort it would take to get public agencies (JTA, COJ), private transportation providers (water taxi) and private garage/lot owners to get on board for all of their mutual benefit, and then the effort it would take to get Council to approve, I expect JEDC is not even considering this. Or maybe they are, and the revenue-sharing percentage is too high. Either way, what I expect we'll get out of Mr. Crawford's efforts are a few more 2-hr meters that take quarters only.

2. A local company, started by an engineer/scientist who formerly worked at JEA, has developed a method for turning garbage into electricity without massive amounts of harmful by-product. They have had conversations with JEA and COJ over the past several years about building a plant somewhere in Northeast Florida, but Duval/Jax has consistently indicated they would continue to deal with waste through existing locations/methods (Waste Management/Trailer Ridge, anyone?)

This company now has financing in place to build the plant, and a contract with Tallahassee and surrounding counties for waste processing and plant development in that part of the State (I think it is being built in Leon County). So here we have a local, innovative business that will be implementing its forward thinking somewhere other than its Jacksonville hometown.

Again, I don't want to dash anyone's hopes that Jacksonville can be forward-thinking and innovative. My goal in putting this info out there is to give our local decision-makers a "kick-in-the-pants" about what they are blowing. It also seems much of the citizenry doesn't care, or is terrified of moving out of the "good-ol-boy" age, or the political and decision-making process here would be evolving more dramatically...

JeffreyS · May 31, 2009, 10:52:08 AM

What parking situation downtown. There is an abundance of parking. Rip out the meters put up some 2 hour signs and barely enforce.

Ocklawaha · May 31, 2009, 11:22:41 AM

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 31, 2009, 10:52:08 AM
What parking situation downtown. There is an abundance of parking. Rip out the meters put up some 2 hour signs and barely enforce.

That parking could easily be spun into a huge supporter of FREE curbside parking AND mass transit.

Say? Does ANYONE have a fix on the garage and lot locations and approximate capacity? How about total meter revenue? Lake you want us to explore this in the coming week? I've got a hunch that a solution, as I explained it to MJ and Councilman Bishop is the solution.

OCKLAWAHA

thelakelander · May 31, 2009, 01:55:02 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 31, 2009, 12:51:10 AM
Lake, I'll add to your last post by saying: having isolated or even independent systems at the Beach, STJTC and Downtown would not damage our odds of Mass Transit Development. Since Light Rail Transit and Streetcar can be interchangable (depending on construction). This just means as the system grows, many of the feeders would already be in place to create network.

OCKLAWAHA

The money to build it at the beach before the core would reduce the amount that you could invest in the core, unless the beach communities decide to pay for it themselves or someone donates a big pot of money. In addition, a system of isolated systems would also require multiple O&M facilities, thus increasing the implementation costs on the community as a whole.

heights unknown · May 31, 2009, 08:26:14 PM

Jacksonville is not ready for streetcars, commuter rail, or any of these envogue items; when we grow up and realize that we are a big city, and finally know who we really are, then we'll be ready for streetcars, commuter rail, and other types of mass transit outside of just bus transit.

Heights Unknown

Ocklawaha · May 31, 2009, 08:38:07 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2009, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 31, 2009, 12:51:10 AM
Lake, I'll add to your last post by saying: having isolated or even independent systems at the Beach, STJTC and Downtown would not damage our odds of Mass Transit Development. Since Light Rail Transit and Streetcar can be interchangable (depending on construction). This just means as the system grows, many of the feeders would already be in place to create network.

OCKLAWAHA

The money to build it at the beach before the core would reduce the amount that you could invest in the core, unless the beach communities decide to pay for it themselves or someone donates a big pot of money. In addition, a system of isolated systems would also require multiple O&M facilities, thus increasing the implementation costs on the community as a whole.

Right, but as I said before, I don't see us paying for the SJTC "system" or anything within the beach cities. They COULD however plan and qualify for federal funding without COJ being involved, unless their heads are in a noose to our local AUTHORITY.

OCKLAWAHA

thelakelander · May 31, 2009, 08:43:58 PM

I believe their heads are.

Charles Hunter · May 31, 2009, 09:13:13 PM

The JTA is the agency recognized by the Feds for receipt of Transit dollars for Duval County, so unless JTA agreed, the Beaches cities - or anyone else - could not get Federal transit funding.

Ocklawaha · May 31, 2009, 09:16:54 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on May 31, 2009, 08:26:14 PM
Jacksonville is not ready for streetcars, commuter rail, or any of these envogue items; when we grow up and realize that we are a big city, and finally know who we really are, then we'll be ready for streetcars, commuter rail, and other types of mass transit outside of just bus transit.

Heights Unknown

Heights, sad part is, we once had Commuter rail, and we abandoned it. We once had the largest train station south of Washington D.C.. At one time it was even the busiest in the world, and we turned it into a "gun show center". We once had the largest Streetcar system in the state, and we sold them out and scrapped them. We once had multiple bus lines (Greyhound, City Coach, Tamiami Trails, Trailways, Colonial, Southeastern Stages and the San Jose Lines) but we allowed them to waste away, while our planners want today's bus station "Out of Downtown." We once had the largest City Bus transit system in Florida. We combined it with a state highway builder and named it "An Authority." Then we fell to 2Nd, then 3Rd, and we are teetering on a collapse to number 5, if Orlando, and Tampa, step up their efforts. We built 1/2 of a DPM system, then lost interest and converted it to a monorail, then quit any improvements calling it political suicide. Now we have citizens calling to dismantle the whole project. We could already have Light Rail up and running but they told THAT consultant to leave town or not work again.

Heights Unknown? After all this industrious success, you guys REALLY think I could just walk away from this? Bring it on Jacksonville!

OCKLAWAHA
I don't know Lake and Charles, one of their planners sure wants to talk to me...Wonder what they have in mind?