Do you want a Streetcar System Downtown?

[Ocklawaha]

Streetcar?
DMU/LRT?
Trolley Bus?
Skyway?
Diesel Transit Bus?
Diesel Commuter Flyer Bus?
Community Shuttle Bus?
Subscription Bus?
Special Needs Transit?
HOV?
HOV+BRT?

ALL FOR THE PRICE OF BRT? WHY NOT? JACKSONVILLE!

On top of Commuter Rail using a small, self propelled DMU or EMU (electric) train, on the:
Gateway, Northside, Airport, Fernandina Beach Route.
San Marco, Bowden, Avenues, Nocatee, St. Augustine Route
Edgewood, NAS, Orange Park, Doctors Lake, Green Cove Springs Route.

With HOV-BRT routes working :
Northwest Side, Eastside, Arlington, Regency, Beaches, JTB, Orange Park Rail to Blanding,

Plus the current bus system + new community services + subscription bus + flyers

To this add the follwing mix downtown:



A Skyway completed, but not to Springfield, touching the Stadium, San Marco and 5-Points/Riverside, Above traffic and connecting the core as a free shuttle.



A system of real overhead wire trolley buses, are a fixed route system. They have higher ridership figures then diesel buses and better TOD records. They are not as good at either as streetcars, but somewhat more flexible and slightly cheaper.  Best of all, a well planned grid, complimented by Skyway and Streetcar would balance the modes and give us a mix. MIX SELLS TRANSIT!



I already posted a proposed streetcar route. If we used Main, we would need to replace the median with a landscaped rail line, Ditto for Pearl. This would toss auto traffic off on other streets, but new routing, and improvements on I-95 as well as throughout downtown, would lessen the effect. Moreover the numbers that would use transit, should more then account for lane loss, Rail has a MUCH greater lane capacity then highway.

Combined to look like this:



Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

how about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

The best possible use, is a sale to St. Augustine or Fernandina Beach Tour Operators. The current trolleys don't cut it with anyone. In fact, they have a "FAKE" written all over them, something I believe detracts from them being serious transit shuttles. What if we made life size Cardboard cut-outs of the Jaguars?  Would you buy a ticket to see cardboard Jaguars? No? Why would you go and see the Cardboard Jaguar Cutouts for free? Probably not. But a single REAL player can draw a crowd? Why? Because people are turned off by being talked down to. The numbers in the "OLD PUEBLO TROLLEY" in Tuscon really tell the story. Here a daily fake trolley system, competes head-on with a real trolley. There are more fakes then real trolleys, and the fakes go into the heart of the nightlife, the real trolley falls quite short of the same. Same schedule? No, in fact the fakes run nearly 18 hours a day, while the real ones just a few days a week, few trips, with volunteer labor. What happens? The REAL TROLLEYS carry twice to three times as many passengers per week as the fakes. Let's not make the same mistake, don't spend a dime on more fake anything. To get it right, we must get real!

Anyone can locate the OLD PUEBLO (Tuscon AZ) trolley numbers, and story online.

Ocklawaha

[jeh1980]

Yes, I'd like to have them. As for the murmur and complaints....they're valid and we have the right to do so...I agree that we can make a difference, which is why we speak up in the first place.

I can understand. We all have the right to express how we feel. Ain't no use of us doubting that. I just felt that if we continue to murmur and complain about our city, we are only limiting ourselves and not much can get done around here. For example, the story of Moses. When God helped Moses lead the children of Israel away from slavery in Egypt, the people murmured and complained about everything especially against Moses claiming that he led them in the wilderness only to die. God wanted them all to get to their new home. A paradise flowing with milk and honey. And It would've took all of them eleven days to get there. But with all of that murmuring and complaining they did (against Moses) it had took them 40 YEARS and only Joshua and Celeb made it to their new home. Millions of others that were with them all died along the way...even Moses. So we can all see that murmuring and complaining only make things worse for us. Not just us but our future generations and that saddens our Lord.      

[thelakelander]

For Springfield residents:

How do you feel about a streetcar running down Pearl or any street other than Main?  Is it Main or bust?

Ock:

So the only way to run tracks up Main would be by rebuilding the median?  Do you think the FDOT would be willing to let track run in one of the existing lanes?  If not, this means all the money currently being spent on Main is a complete waste and all parallel parking on Main will be lost to accomodate four lanes of traffic and streetcar tracks.

[downtownparks]

I think for saftey purposes, it almost has to be in the outside lanes, going north and South.

[thelakelander]

Canal Street - New Orleans (tracks run in middle of street)




Portland Streetcar - (tracks run with lanes - will FDOT allow this?)


TECO Streetcar - Tampa (tracks run on outer edge of road - will take the place of parallel parking)

[Lunican]

The current median on Main St between 1st and 4th is wide enough for one track

[downtownparks]

I think it would be best to leave the median, and put one track north and one track south on the outside lanes.

[Ocklawaha]

So the only way to run tracks up Main would be by rebuilding the median?  Do you think the FDOT would be willing to let track run in one of the existing lanes?  If not, this means all the money currently being spent on Main is a complete waste and all parallel parking on Main will be lost to accomodate four lanes of traffic and streetcar tracks.

I'm pretty sure in an urban area, we could twist the arm of FDOT and USDOT on that one, since a streetcar must be considered as a transit vehicle. The only question would be some mandate on where the tracks were placed. In my mind (what's left of it anyway) to rebuild Main AND Pearl, without the "MOST BEAUTIFUL STREETCAR LINE IN THE WORLD" coming back to life, is a travesty. We had it once, and median or no, this is once when we should bite the 7 block or 10 block bullet and do it right the SECOND time out. As for safety, on single track, simple safety islands serve the purpose. On double track, safety islands can be used, or the cars can run left handed so the passengers board onto the adjacent track (of course when there is no other car coming along). Curbside does take out parking but offers safety. I'd like to see median, where we can landscape ourselves back into the World Book of Records... Then slow lane in other areas, with a hybrid of enlarged safety corners on the blocks, these would protect the parked cars and at the end of each street give a place to board. I'll try a picture.




Ocklawaha

[GuyArch]

If a trolley system or light rail is introduced downtown, there should be free zones downtown that encourage people to stay downtown and use the system.  Only those who travel out of the urban core, to the burbs, should pay a fee.  In Portland they have the free zones downtown and within the entire system there is not much supervision of fair payment.  They rely on honesty for payment.  Perhaps we could do something like that in Jax.

[tufsu1]

how about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

The best possible use, is a sale to St. Augustine or Fernandina Beach Tour Operators. The current trolleys don't cut it with anyone. In fact, they have a "FAKE" written all over them, something I believe detracts from them being serious transit shuttles. What if we made life size Cardboard cut-outs of the Jaguars?  Would you buy a ticket to see cardboard Jaguars? No? Why would you go and see the Cardboard Jaguar Cutouts for free? Probably not. But a single REAL player can draw a crowd? Why? Because people are turned off by being talked down to. The numbers in the "OLD PUEBLO TROLLEY" in Tuscon really tell the story. Here a daily fake trolley system, competes head-on with a real trolley. There are more fakes then real trolleys, and the fakes go into the heart of the nightlife, the real trolley falls quite short of the same. Same schedule? No, in fact the fakes run nearly 18 hours a day, while the real ones just a few days a week, few trips, with volunteer labor. What happens? The REAL TROLLEYS carry twice to three times as many passengers per week as the fakes. Let's not make the same mistake, don't spend a dime on more fake anything. To get it right, we must get real!

Anyone can locate the OLD PUEBLO (Tuscon AZ) trolley numbers, and story online.

Ocklawaha

you are kidding right....I'm sure the main purpose in having a system would be to provide a transit alternative....not just to have some fun train for everyo9ne to look at!

Even San Francisco, where I am right now, has rubber-tired trolleys and trackless trolleys (read electeric buses) to go along with the streetcars and cable cars....and they all seem pretty well packed.

[Ocklawaha]

Trackless Trolleys are REAL transit vehicles, built to heavy duty Transit Standards. Faux Trolleys are amusement park rides that somehow escaped into the real world. They have been over-sold and way under utilized throughout the Americas. As for Transit Standards, they are built more like school buses, or as I have said, Potato Chip Trucks. They go to the factory direct from the automakers as a engine and frame assembly. A box is then added depending on if they are making trucks for Chips or for People, either way the ride and the look is pretty much the same. HORRIBLE. If we want transit shuttles, I'm the first in line for modern ELECTRIC Trolley Buses, as long as they have Gillig, MCI or other coach builders construction. Give us electrics downtown any day.

Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

Only those who travel out of the urban core, to the burbs, should pay a fee.  In Portland they have the free zones downtown and within the entire system there is not much supervision of fair payment.  They rely on honesty for payment.  Perhaps we could do something like that in Jax.

If Mayor Peyton's Bus is to be his legacy, perhaps FARE FREE TRANSIT in Jacksonville would happen, along with a good mix of modes and routes. Imagine being the Mayor that dumped BRT (as is) and demonstrated to all of Florida how to do Transit Right! Cool eh? Yes, your fare free zone is a wonderful idea!

Ocklawaha

[archiphreak]

Hell yes I want a trolley system downtown.  What a brilliant idea!  Though I agree with some other posts that it should compliment, not compete, with the Skyway.  Also, it should extend to Riverside, Brooklyn, Springfield, San Marco, the Cathedral District, the East side and possibly even to Murray Hill/Avondale.  As far as a tourist attraction, it's the best idea since they renamed the city "The Bold New City of the South".  And of course, seeing as this is such an awesome idea, and such a simple solution to transportation downtown and in surrounding areas it will never get off the ground. 

[thelakelander]

Rome wasn't built in a day.  To get such a system off the ground, it would make sense to build it in phases to keep costs down.  Perhaps a "starter" or "pilot" line that definately connects places where people want to go for a change.  For example, would a starter line that connected Five Points to the Landing draw more ridership over one that would run from Springfield to the riverfront?

If those are proven to be successful, then maybe the city could then look at expanding lines to Avondale, Murray Hill or further up Main as future phases?