Do you want a Streetcar System Downtown?

[Steve]

YES streetcars. Modern/Heritage doesn't matter to me - just get it done! I suppose if one option were quieter than the other (though it doesn't seem one would be), I'd opt for that one.

In Springfield, I think a Main St. line would be a better choice despite the historical use of Hubbard. Hubbard is single-family residential , and the dropping off of riders on that street doesn't seem to make sense like it would if that street were more multi-family. A streetcar a Main would be more convenient to, and create excitement on, the main commercial corridor -- and b/c it's a federal hwy, some funding could come from FDOT.

2 other things I think are missing in metrojacksonville.com's Springfield route solution are

1. The connection to UF/Shands. Those folks will likely want to use the businesses that are coming to Main, and a revitalized downtown. That's like saying, here's a Riverside route with no stops in front of BCBS, Fidelity and Everbank.

2. Also missing is a "stadium spur" that enables resident/northside traffic to abandon the car further north of the sports district. With fewer cars going to stadium/arena/fairgrounds, metrojacksonville.com's suggestion to use some of stadium parking for garage/mixed use to improve that part of downtown works better.

Keep in mind that this is designed to fit in to MetroJacksonville's Rail Plan, which uses the S-Line on the northside to head towards the airport. This will provide transit for the residents from further north (new springfield/brentwood/panama) to get downtown (and yes, we did plan for a stop at Shands).

Keep in mind that there are many other places to take the trolley (I'd love to take it through Avondale), but for a first phase, the whole enchilada is not always the right way to go.

[thelakelander]

...Stadium spur from the north end of Springfield through the Eastside neighborhood. Then that area becomes attractive for redevelopment also.

Another part of the discussion revolved around pricing and how much should we spend on a first phase.  A streetcar system costs much more than using DMUs on existing lines.  For example, Albuquerque's streetcar line under construction is estimated to cost $28 million/mile, which is comparable with JTA's planned dedicated busway system.  What's shown on the graphic is exactly four miles, so in the event it came in at Albuquerque's numbers (it could be higher or lower depending on a number of factors), that would total up to $112 million.  By comparison, Austin's DMU system running on existing tracks came in at $112 million for 32 miles, so phasing becomes an important element because we don't have much money to kick around.

So, although it has not been shown on the posted graphic, there's no reason additional lines, like ones running through the Eastside or down to Avondale can't happen.  The real question would revolve around how can we get something started soon, off the ground without breaking the bank, yet still having it lengthy enough to connect current destination stops, triggering infill development between them.

[Ocklawaha]

This post is to show some of the alternative transit routes we discussed, any of which could be built in whole or part. Perhaps this is the key to an ultimate system downtown, done in phases. Note that all of the red-orange colors are streetcar routes. The blue-purple are skyway routes. This also shows a jog that would include Annie Lytle School, if it could be used. I realize some are rolling their eyes, seeing a page full of lines, hey, just take a shot and dream a little! This does not address Avondale-Ortega, or San Marco-San Jose, or Arlington (which could go modern streetcar or BRT). Northwest Jax. would seem a better fit for a DMU or Interurban type streetcar service, with BRT feeders.



Ocklawaha

[zoo]

Since when has gov't, at any level, cared if they spend money for something on a band-aid basis only to have to go back and modify shortly thereafter? How about the pocket park on Main? A temporary fix to a problem the city seems to indicate will someday be solved by an RFP to developers, which metrojacksonville.com and others argued for doing NOW.

I don't think gov'ts short-sightedness in fixing something should be used as a reason to justify a strategically inferior option -- FDOT is spending money to have 5th-12th done, and has already spent money to have 1st-4th done, so tearing up a lane to lay streetcar track on that commercial corridor isn't the best option.

I haven't figured out gov't money, and how it is deemed to be spent, other than to say that whatever interest makes the strongest financial case to get something done (or can barter some other valuable with govt) also seems to get gov't favor in terms of spending.

Main over Hubbard is mho based on factors other than short-sighted govt spending.

[tufsu1]

how about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

[downtownparks]

One critique I have is, it appears that the proposed street car lines compete with the sky way. I think it might be better to have the sky way play more of a central role. For instance, if there is a Duval Line to the Stadium district, it should end at Government Center, rather than cut south, and parallel the skyway.

[thelakelander]

How would you connect the streetcar with the Park Street line?  What about the Bay Street Town Center, Hyatt, Landing, CSX and the Times Union?  Are these accurately served by the Skyway now?  Do you suggest extending the skyway down Bay Street, in the event that the Shipyards comee to fruition or the convention center is moved to the current courthouse site?

[downtownparks]

No, perhaps separate lines. Have a Bay St Line and a Duval St Line. Certainly the event day capacity can be used, and that way you use existing infrastructure, rather than compete with it.

[raheem942]

well i like the idea of a skyrail but i think we should get one of thoses one way traffic lanes they can be a real pain when ur trying to explorer the streets of downtown

[downtownparks]

Sky-anything is going to be big bucks. That is what killed the skyway, and why it was never built all the way out.

[raheem942]

Sky-anything is going to be big bucks. That is what killed the skyway, and why it was never built all the way out.

i say we finish it if it acutaly wnet somewhere people would use it

[thelakelander]

how about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

I believe, JTA is already in the process of doing this by proposing to extend the trolley to Five Points.  

[thelakelander]

No, perhaps separate lines. Have a Bay St Line and a Duval St Line. Certainly the event day capacity can be used, and that way you use existing infrastructure, rather than compete with it.

Duval through the Hemming Plaza area to Lee and then South to Park?

The only area I see the argument of competing with the Skyway would be the leg between the convention center and Landing, other than that the Skyway remains the only way to get to the Southbank and still directly serves Hemming Plaza, the new courthouse site, city hall and FCCJ, while the streetcar allows you to hit the East Bay area, riverfront and the Cathedral District  without having to spend millions on extending the skyway.

Nevertheless, if the ultimate goal is to tie the streetcar in with the proposed transportation center and Five Points, it will have to parallel the skyway's convention center leg or eliminate the streetcar's access to the waterfront (TU Center, Landing, Hyatt, Bay Street Town Center)

[thelakelander]

Since when has gov't, at any level, cared if they spend money for something on a band-aid basis only to have to go back and modify shortly thereafter? How about the pocket park on Main? A temporary fix to a problem the city seems to indicate will someday be solved by an RFP to developers, which metrojacksonville.com and others argued for doing NOW.

I don't think gov'ts short-sightedness in fixing something should be used as a reason to justify a strategically inferior option -- FDOT is spending money to have 5th-12th done, and has already spent money to have 1st-4th done, so tearing up a lane to lay streetcar track on that commercial corridor isn't the best option.

I haven't figured out gov't money, and how it is deemed to be spent, other than to say that whatever interest makes the strongest financial case to get something done (or can barter some other valuable with govt) also seems to get gov't favor in terms of spending.

Main over Hubbard is mho based on factors other than short-sighted govt spending.

So based off the graphic in the article, run the line up Newnan and switch over to Main in the vicinity of Confederate Park and Hogan's Creek?

[downtownparks]

I think that would be ok. Why not use some of that ROW money to buy the Parkview Inn as a transfer station.:D:D