California, Florida Top List to Secure High-Speed-Rail Funds

[tufsu1]

From what I am hearing there is work being done to get the Jacksonville link on the Florida system. It is in the making. I dont know how that was ever allowed to happen.

the original HSR legislation required connecting Florida's 5 largest urban areas....they just decided to start with Tampa-Orlando-Miami....the argument being that Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm are separate urban areas from Miami, and are both bigger than Jax.

[WeeklyJoe]

As someone living outside Florida who would like to see Jacksonville be a Mecca of Florida rail travel, I can't see a high-standard HSR being a viable mode of transportation anywhere in this country soon, and why the railroads with the greatest potential making money on freight (which is why Amtrak was formed, correct?) wouldn't be looking for their own style of bailout to pay for the infrastructure. Seems possible.

Florida has lots of airports, but most (if not all...must check this out) do not have a central area for a traveler to make a direct connection without involving another mode of travel, except renting a car or flying right       back out. The easier alternative connection during travel often sways me from your city.

I would like to see Florida have a progressive attitude toward the beginnings of HSR, vested by a practical state supported transportation system into and out of Jacksonville. Once the price of gas goes back up, others will be asking why the same didn't already happen.

[mtraininjax]

Let's say that HSR came to Jacksonville. Where would it go from there? Would we go to Orlando, Miami, Tampa? How often would we go? After all HSR has to some day make a profit, since it is going across counties, the state would not dare manage it, probably outsource it. When would it turn a profit? How many years would it take?

If you can't turn a profit in a business venture, why even bother with it?

[thelakelander]

^HSR (High Speed Rail) in most cases will end up being "Higher Speed Rail" intercity rail travel.  This will be done by improving designated HSR corridors on existing lines through track capacity, ROW and infrastructure upgrades.  So assuming it came to Jacksonville, it could basically mean having Amtrak trains that reach their destinations quicker than they do today.  In other words, you'll have another decent alternative for travel beyond automobile or air travel.

[mtraininjax]

Again, when would it turn a profit?

[thelakelander]

Sure, if you weight the capital and O&M costs with the amount of economic development it could spur and the reduction in highway construction costs along with it.  Alone, it would recoup more than typical major highway expansion projects would, plus begin to move the country away from continued sprawl development patterns.  If the investment goes to improving existing rail corridors in Florida, Amtrak has stated that they could break even, which is better than most can bring to the table.

[mtraininjax]

Why would you propose spending time and money to break even? Why bother? That is like coaching a child to mediocrity. We're americans, we strive to do better. We lead the world....

Chicken and egg - You really need to fix downtown, and get people living in downtown to have rail work from the convention center. But to do this, you need businesses to be downtown, instead of moving out to sprawl, I agree, I dislike sprawl as well, but until people HAVE to travel downtown to work, you can't fix it. Most people can work from home now as well, so sprawl is probably with us for our lifetimes. I know you need more business downtown to get more people downtown. I don't know how to do that in this town.

[tufsu1]

If you do a total cost-benefit analysis for most rail transit systems, you'll see that they are a net positive...this includes looking at time/cost savings in delay/congestion, expanded tax rolls from new developments, and lower infrastructure costs for that development (sewers, roads, etc.).

The problem is no one ever truly looks at all of the secondary and cumulative effects of transportation decisions.

[JeffreyS]

Could you show us some examples of such analysis?

[tufsu1]

as I said, they hardly ever get truly measured...its kind of hard to state unequivocally that a certain development did or did not happen because of a transportation investment.

But there is a good bit of data on a few websites...try

www.reconnectingamerica.org

www.vtpi.org

[mtraininjax]

The most successful rail systems, where are they located? The so called "light rail"?

My bet is that they are in cities with a larger downtown population as well as a larger proportion of residents living downtown, to take advantage of the rail system.

With few people living downtown, essentially 2200 daily use the only light rail equivalent (just for you Ock). That is not enough to make a break even plan for yet another mediocre transportation plan.

Great, those sites prove my point, Minneapolis, Denver, LA, all have higher downtown populations than we currently have, and hence have more need for the service. Unless you plan to run light rail from Mandarin to STJTC, and call that a transportation alternative. No one has really said where light rail will connect in Jax.

[Lunican]

After all HSR has to some day make a profit, since it is going across counties, the state would not dare manage it, probably outsource it. When would it turn a profit? How many years would it take?

If you can't turn a profit in a business venture, why even bother with it?

Just like I-95, High speed rail is not a business venture.

[mtraininjax]

Just like I-95, High speed rail is not a business venture

Yet more people use I-95 than any rail in America. What is your logic?

You want the Feds to pay for the HSR? They just gave Amtrak a BILLION dollars, Amtrak should be able to prove it can do it before we look at another exercise as to how to lose money.

[Lunican]

How much did I-95 cost? Was it a BILLION dollars? How much profit did it make last year?

[fsujax]

I ask the same questions Lunican....how much has JTB made in the past 30 years??? I am dying to find out.