1 Train - 2 trains - red trains - blue trains... Skyway unscrambled and expanded

[thelakelander]

First, I provided exactly that. A list of locations and names that it should connect. We only got off onto this tangent, when lakelander started saying how it could never work, and I had to point out examples of other places where they've already done the same thing and it works fine.

Not exactly true.  I said extending the Skyway all across the city would be impractical.  I was confused since you keep referring to the EL, which is a heavy rail system.  Now I see you're actually talking about retrofitting skyway, replacing it with another transit technology (heavy rail?) and extending the elevated support structures all over town similar to Miami's Metrorail.  This is doable, but we'll need to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to fund it.  Ultimately, the suggestion of spending billions on elevated rail in an anti-transit state would sink the idea pretty quick.  I'm sure, we'll continue to disagree with this, but there are cheaper/better transit solutions out there.

[ChriswUfGator]

Not exactly true.  I said extending the Skyway all across the city would be impractical.  I was confused since you keep referring to the EL, which is a heavy rail system.  Now I see you're actually talking about retrofitting skyway, replacing it with another transit technology (heavy rail?) and extending the elevated support structures all over town similar to Miami's Metrorail.  This is doable, but we'll need to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to fund it.  Ultimately, the suggestion of spending billions on elevated rail in an anti-transit state would sink the idea pretty quick.  I'm sure, we'll continue to disagree with this, but there are cheaper/better transit solutions out there.

I agree with your assessment of the costs and the voter distaste for spending even $1 on public transit. Most people view it as 'welfare' or as a 'social service' which may as well be a 4-letter word around here.

But at the same time, you can't half-ass this thing if you ever want it to really take off. Nobody is going to ride a ground rail system that doesn't connect to anything useful because you can't get land near enough to where anybody lives to make it convenient, any more than they'll ride a skyway that isn't connected to anything.

And anything that involves a bus, you may as well just scratch off the list right now. If someone's going to pay to sit in traffic, they'll just do it in their own car. This thing has to be useable, fast, and above all convenient, or it will just be one more thing nobody uses.

[JeffreyS]

Multimodal transit is fine.

Only to a point. When it is so fragmented as to become unusable...it will be unused.

By your logic, the skyway would already be a success, since you can connect to buses, right? But it's not, because it's a hassle.

You lost the context when quoting me I prefaced my comment as needing to be a part of good master plan.  The Skyway is not part of such a plan but could be.  Buses will not do as a commuter choice that brings the community to transit we all know about bus stigma in places that do not already have good transit. 
I do think you make a good point that if your multimodal system is too much of a hassle that will hurt it's success. I have started to wonder if the skyway would be more of a success as a smaller(sorry everyone) system.  Without the convention center line you could quickly travel from the southbank to Hemming.  Central station just slows down too much.  The best thing that would boost the ridership numbers would be turnstiles that work sometimes you have no choice but to squeeze around them.

[Ocklawaha]

OCK would it be possible to run the skyway from the current track down to street level and operate in the median strip?

If so, why not just lower it say Convention Center Station - extend it up Park St. turning east on Post St. to Riverisde Ave (near the Cummer / RAM ) maybe becoming elevated again at the parking garage at Fidelity before heading back to downtown and Central Station.?

This would be doable, but it would take a great deal of planning. Please understand that there is no way to build a railroad crossing over a monorail track. Remember the Monorail wraps around and hugs the beam.

But that said, it IS VERY POSSIBLE to get the monorail on the ground, provided it is fenced off with tall fences topped with security wire. Track third rail current generally runs from 600 volts DC to 13,000 AC. Needless to say, if you were a kid who cut into the fence, it would probably be the last thing you ever did. This is also why the Skyway has those God awful alarms that sound if one steps or leans past the "yellow line" or "boarding gate" before a train is in the station.

Your idea has already been delivered to JTA. It's something I'd like to see in the end point stations of the Skyway. San Marco at the FEC RY for example the Skyway would flyover the tracks behind the JEA electrical switching gear, then follow the tracks south to Atlantic. Just before the station the Skyway would come down to ground level, so that we would have a cross-platform transfer from Commuter Rail to Skyway to bus.  Frankly this is how ALL multi-modal stations should work.

I agree, but it's a balancing act.

It can be multimodal, sure, but only to a point. You will get to the point where, if it's designed to take 2 buses, 3 trains, and a skyway ride to go 5 miles, then nobody will use it. Everybody always forgets, this thing has competition. It's not the only game in town. If it's enough hassle, people will just hop in the car. It needs to be competitive...

[/quote]

Multimodal transit is fine.

Only to a point. When it is so fragmented as to become unusable...it will be unused.

By your logic, the skyway would already be a success, since you can connect to buses, right? But it's not, because it's a hassle.

Chris, I agree completely with your comments on this.  This is a big wedge between I and Ock and Lake about the viability of sustaining/expanding the $ky-high-way.  Regardless of the final system configuration, I too have serious doubts about why and who would commute from the suburbs and transfer to the $ky-high-way for the last mile or so.  Or, why in-town people would prefer this over buses, street cars, taxis, biking, or just plain walking.

When in NY, subject to weather and time, I think nothing of walking 5, 10, 20, or 40 city blocks vs. locating, waiting, paying for,, and taking a subway or even a bus.  It's nice to know they are there if you see a need, but once you get to walking a couple of blocks, walking a few more gets easier and easier.  With the limitations to how close the $ky-high-way can get to most destinations, I think users will be getting use to walking real quick.

I don't think there is any large wedge between our positions, just misconceptions over a dream. Allow me a second to look into my crystal ball:

DEFINE MULTI-MODAL in JACKSONVILLE:

RAIL:
Using what we ALREADY have, getting Amtrak to expand first, which includes upgrading track and sidings as well as several station platforms.

Get Amtrak back downtown and convert the Jacksonville Terminal back into the grand old station of the South.

COMMUTER RAIL: Rail Cars (BUDD RDC's) running on the CSX "S" Line West, "A" Line South, "FEC RY South", and COJ-CSX North. 30 minute headways.
Jacksonville-Airport -Yulee
Jacksonville-Avenues-St. Augustine
Jacksonville-Orange Park- Green Cove Springs
Jacksonville-Baldwin-Starke-Gainesville

STREETCAR:
Running through the classic historical close-in and dense neighborhoods, these streetcars would replace several bus routes, either vintage cars (restored) and/or replica cars. The streetcar system would use many hundred volunteers a plan that has worked all over the country. Headways would vary, but still be close to 15 minutes. Look for these from GATEWAY, SPRINGFIELD, NORTH SPRINGFIELD, DURKEEVILLE, DOWNTOWN, FAIRFIELD, LA VILLA, BROOKLYN, RIVERSIDE, AVONDALE, FAIRFAX, ORTEGA, SAN MARCO, SAN JOSE, ST. NICHOLAS. The initial phase would be downtown at the edge of Springfield, South to the Hyatt, West on Water to Union Terminal, South on Park to 5-Points/Park and King.

TROLLEY BUS:
Along with Skyway and Streetcars, the Trolley Bus system would become a fixed route system that would replace the current downtown PCT Trolleys (Potato-Chip-Trucks). By doing this the current "PCT Trolleys" could be made into artificial reefs.

CITY BUS: Headways would be tightened as the streetcars, Trolley Buses and Skyway took, over  and cleaned up downtown. Sidewalk cafes could rejoice and expand. Many buses displaced by the new transit modes, would allow more community bus trips and more frequent arrivals or departures.

EXPRESS BUS: Diamond Lane, HOV bus and carpool restricted for longer JTA park and ride commuter bus routes.

DELUXE COACH: For the long routes to the professional neighborhoods of the Beaches, Putnam, Nassau, St. Johns, Clay, express motor coaches with deluxe features, Restroom, Coffee, Wi-FI etc...

What will NOT happen is multiple transfers between multiple modes. Most transfers would be "cross platform" style. Typical commute would be take the train downtown from Green Cove Springs. At Jacksonville Terminal, breakfast in the restaurant, then on to the Skyway, to travel to City Hall.

OCKLAWAHA
BTW, Subway is completely possibe if we only had the population density for it.

[thelakelander]

I agree with your assessment of the costs and the voter distaste for spending even $1 on public transit. Most people view it as 'welfare' or as a 'social service' which may as well be a 4-letter word around here.

But at the same time, you can't half-ass this thing if you ever want it to really take off. Nobody is going to ride a ground rail system that doesn't connect to anything useful because you can't get land near enough to where anybody lives to make it convenient, any more than they'll ride a skyway that isn't connected to anything.

I agree.  While I don't think land acquisition will be a major problem in Jax, any type of system will fail if it does not connect where people live and want to go.

And anything that involves a bus, you may as well just scratch off the list right now. If someone's going to pay to sit in traffic, they'll just do it in their own car. This thing has to be useable, fast, and above all convenient, or it will just be one more thing nobody uses.

Every American mass transit system involves a bus at some level.  Outside of the major cities, rail would fail without bus feeders complementing rail spines.  Imo, Jax is going to have to start small (we can't bring rail to the entire city overnight) and work its way up ladder with expansions like Salt Lake City has done.  This means it will be critical to select an initial corridor that has high appeal with the area of town it will serve.  Because it's success or failure will determine future expansion possibilities.

[thelakelander]

I have started to wonder if the skyway would be more of a success as a smaller(sorry everyone) system.  Without the convention center line you could quickly travel from the southbank to Hemming.  Central station just slows down too much.  The best thing that would boost the ridership numbers would be turnstiles that work sometimes you have no choice but to squeeze around them.

I can't remember who mentioned it, but the skyway's service would be better if they had two distinct lines instead of three.  One should run back and forth between the convention center and Central Station.  The main line should run from FCCJ to Kings Avenue.  This along with fixing the turnstiles would be a huge improvement.

[Shwaz]

But that said, it IS VERY POSSIBLE to get the monorail on the ground, provided it is fenced off with tall fences topped with security wire. Track third rail current generally runs from 600 volts DC to 13,000 AC. Needless to say, if you were a kid who cut into the fence, it would probably be the last thing you ever did. This is also why the Skyway has those God awful alarms that sound if one steps or leans past the "yellow line" or "boarding gate" before a train is in the station.

What about building it 6' to 8' off the ground instead of 20'? I imagine at 13' + the skyway could travel straight through intersections with vehichles being able to pass underneath.

[stjr]

Because you would have no other transit choice to get around to DT areas where the skyway serves from the JTC.  Taking a commuter rail train from Orange Park to the JTC and transferring to the skyway to access the Southbank or City Hall, for example, would be no different from catching a NJ transit commuter rail train in Paterson and transferring to another train in Secaucus to access Manhattan.  I could understand if we were talking about trips that take a ton of transfers, but we're literally complaining about one transfer stop.  No matter what modes are selected in Jacksonville, an extensive mass transit system will include tranfers.  That's pretty common in any major city you go to.

Lake, I think "lack of choice" is a fallacy of the proponent's arguments.  People always have choices.   In this case, they could just avoid Downtown altogether.  Then the entire issue is mute.  I did concede there are always a few people and/or circumstances that may encourage intermodal transfers, but, this MO being far less desirable, I don't think there will be enough to justify expansion or maintenance intentions.

I think behavioral scientists (and common sense) will tell you nature and people mostly take the path of least resistance.  Just watch people leave a sidewalk for the dirt when it provides a more direct path.  (Quick story:  Upon touring Florida Atlantic University, they related that they put in NO sidewalks between buildings on campus for a year. The let people walk wherever they chose.  After the year, they poured the sidewalks wherever the beaten paths were!)

Alternative choices and less hassle are the REAL reasons I see the $ky-high-way not exceeding 10% of its 20 year old projections even with an enlarged universe.  The experts' (not me, Ock!) theories didn't properly account for these realities IMHO.

P.S. Comparisons to mega-cities like New York and Chicago should not be weighted as much here.  Due to their far larger sizes, their "choices" and "hassle thresholds" have much different benchmarks.

[thelakelander]

Because you would have no other transit choice to get around to DT areas where the skyway serves from the JTC.  Taking a commuter rail train from Orange Park to the JTC and transferring to the skyway to access the Southbank or City Hall, for example, would be no different from catching a NJ transit commuter rail train in Paterson and transferring to another train in Secaucus to access Manhattan.  I could understand if we were talking about trips that take a ton of transfers, but we're literally complaining about one transfer stop.  No matter what modes are selected in Jacksonville, an extensive mass transit system will include tranfers.  That's pretty common in any major city you go to.

Lake, I think "lack of choice" is a fallacy of the proponent's arguments.  People always have choices.   In this case, they could just avoid Downtown altogether.  Then the entire issue is mute.  I did concede there are always a few people and/or circumstances that may encourage intermodal transfers, but, this MO being far less desirable, I don't think there will be enough to justify expansion or maintenance intentions.

Let me further define.  Everyone has a choice and not all commuters will be traveling to downtown.  However, those that do, should not have multiple transit modes traveling to the same destination, if we're trying to stretch out our limited transit dollars.  When I referred to choice, I meant in a transit sense.  "If" the skyway is to become a part of a regional transportation plan, it would not make sense to provide transit options that parallel and compete with it for riders.  That would be foolish on Jacksonville's part and a waste of financial resources that could be used to improve transit options in areas outside of downtown.  By the same token, its also wasteful to run dedicated busways and commuter rail down the CSX A line corridor.  Modes should be set up to feed people into each other instead of competing for the same riders.

P.S. Comparisons to mega-cities like New York and Chicago should not be weighted as much here.  Due to their far larger sizes, their "choices" and "hassle thresholds" have much different benchmarks.

I agree, that's why I normally throw peers like Salt Lake City and Charlotte into the mix (see yesterday's front page article).  Take a look at the SLC transit map.  Depending on where you are going you may have to transfer between two light rail lines (red & blue) and a commuter rail line (purple).  In the future, more light, commuter rail and streetcar lines will be added to the mix.  Despite riders having to transfer, depending on their personal start and end points, SLC's systems continue to put up good ridership numbers.

[Ocklawaha]

ALL PHOTOS JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL COMPANY - (What Some People Want To Call Jacksonville Transportation Center). NOT!

I have started to wonder if the skyway would be more of a success as a smaller(sorry everyone) system.  Without the convention center line you could quickly travel from the southbank to Hemming.  Central station just slows down too much.  The best thing that would boost the ridership numbers would be turnstiles that work sometimes you have no choice but to squeeze around them.

I can't remember who mentioned it, but the skyway's service would be better if they had two distinct lines instead of three.  One should run back and forth between the convention center and Central Station.  The main line should run from FCCJ to Kings Avenue.  This along with fixing the turnstiles would be a huge improvement.

I did Lake, in a thread that hardly was noticed, not even our friends at JTA saw it. Funny because they were talking about this very subject, and I told them a simple track rearrangement would do wonders for the schedules. To work properly in a swing motion both legs of the lines need to be close (but NOT the same length) but not the identical length.

EVERYONE FLIP BACK TO PAGE ONE AND READ THE NEW POSTS TRANSFERED INTO THIS THREAD... THANX

[/quote]

But that said, it IS VERY POSSIBLE to get the monorail on the ground, provided it is fenced off with tall fences topped with security wire. Track third rail current generally runs from 600 volts DC to 13,000 AC. Needless to say, if you were a kid who cut into the fence, it would probably be the last thing you ever did. This is also why the Skyway has those God awful alarms that sound if one steps or leans past the "yellow line" or "boarding gate" before a train is in the station.

What about building it 6' to 8' off the ground instead of 20'? I imagine at 13' + the skyway could travel straight through intersections with vehichles being able to pass underneath.

As long as 10-12 feet kept folks from being able to reach it, or if on the ground, security fenced with alarm and lights. The profile could be a gentle undulating ride, raising over roads or creeks and dipping back to the surface between them.

Because you would have no other transit choice to get around to DT areas where the skyway serves from the JTC.  Taking a commuter rail train from Orange Park to the JTC and transferring to the skyway to access the Southbank or City Hall, for example, would be no different from catching a NJ transit commuter rail train in Paterson and transferring to another train in Secaucus to access Manhattan.  I could understand if we were talking about trips that take a ton of transfers, but we're literally complaining about one transfer stop.  No matter what modes are selected in Jacksonville, an extensive mass transit system will include transfers.  That's pretty common in any major city you go to.

Lake, I think "lack of choice" is a fallacy of the proponent's arguments.  People always have choices.   In this case, they could just avoid Downtown altogether.  Then the entire issue is mute.  I did concede there are always a few people and/or circumstances that may encourage intermodal transfers, but, this MO being far less desirable, I don't think there will be enough to justify expansion or maintenance intentions.

Let me further define.  Everyone has a choice and not all commuters will be traveling to downtown.  However, those that do, should not have multiple transit modes traveling to the same destination, if we're trying to stretch out our limited transit dollars.  When I referred to choice, I meant in a transit sense.  "If" the skyway is to become a part of a regional transportation plan, it would not make sense to provide transit options that parallel and compete with it for riders.  That would be foolish on Jacksonville's part and a waste of financial resources that could be used to improve transit options in areas outside of downtown.  By the same token, its also wasteful to run dedicated busways and commuter rail down the CSX A line corridor.  Modes should be set up to feed people into each other instead of competing for the same riders.

P.S. Comparisons to mega-cities like New York and Chicago should not be weighted as much here.  Due to their far larger sizes, their "choices" and "hassle thresholds" have much different benchmarks.

I agree, that's why I normally throw peers like Salt Lake City and Charlotte into the mix (see yesterday's front page article).  Take a look at the SLC transit map.  Depending on where you are going you may have to transfer between two light rail lines (red & blue) and a commuter rail line (purple).  In the future, more light, commuter rail and streetcar lines will be added to the mix.  Despite riders having to transfer, depending on their personal start and end points, SLC's systems continue to put up good ridership numbers.

Okay y'all your resident old transit hippie is hearing cheering words. stjr, I think you didn't get the full depth of study that Lake and myself have done on this subject. The last comments from you sounded like the same lines we shot at JTA in one of the BRT meetings. Then they called US "Flying Monkeys", now they call us for "free consultation". Oh well, go figure.

You are right, JTA has BRT, Commuter Rail, Bus, streetcar and almost ALWAYS the Skyway duplicated route after route and mode after mode. I argued the better part of one of their shows over drawing the Southbank busway, directly underneath the ENTIRE length of the Skyway! When we had another meeting, I asked why they don't bring the buses off the Acosta, turn right in front of Atena, left in front of Baptist Medical Center, and Left again on Gary Street, which I would rebuild as a dedicated busway (there's no longer anything on it). Both lines would end at the Kings Avenue Station. Your right again that choice isn't to see how many vehicles we can collect. It is about picking which system works for each neighborhood. For example it is easy to connect Avondale, Riverside, Springfield, Fairfax and Ortega with vintage Streetcars. God knows you'd probably be shot sticking the Skyway through there. Then again, in area's where gridlock forms at rush hour and nothing moves very well... Let's call it Bay and Main and the bridge is up at 5:15 pm. What a mess. But that short stretch of Skyway from Newnan - BOA - Central Station would cure that every time/any day. Another example is the load factor that comes roaring out of NAS JAX at 4:30 PM. Roosevelt is jammed shut for 2 hours, backing up all the way from St. Johns Avenue to 1/2 way over the Buckman. It would be insane to run the NAS "express" during these hours - but that's what we do. However back in the 1960's Roosevelt was 2 lanes South of the main gate and 4 lanes to St. Johns Avenue. The base had more people on it, when the aviation electronics for the entire armed forces was taught there. How did they manage? Well right across the street from the light at NAS JAX, was the Atlantic Coast Line (CSX A LINE) Depot called Yukon. 17 car Passenger trains from Tampa, made the afternoon flag stop and raced into town leaving the bus, and the autos stuck. In this case the train (Commuter Rail) is far superior, but it still requires a bus circulator on base to link the base with the outside rail station. To get the same effect from a bus, we would need to build a bus freeway known as "BRT QUICKWAY", right alongside the CSX from downtown to Yukon. A two lane highway is much more expensive to build and maintain then a railroad, but BRT they say is "Just like rail only cheaper". When the Quickway opened you could run 17 buses from the base to downtown, but it would take 17 380 HP Dedec Engines, 17 drivers, 17 tanks of fuel, and how will we know that all 17 buses will have fair paying passengers? (We won't).

This is what I mean by stretch the Skyway to logical meet points, adjust the BRT maps, use HOV lanes rather then Quickway. Fill those HOV lanes with school buses, Greyhound, Trailways, JTA and even Taxi's. Get the Rail Terminal back up and running. Get Amtrak home and lobby hard to get the 5 train per route plan operating. Follow with Rail Diesel Cars in Commuter Rail. Meanwhile add streetcar hugging Park St. and Water. Fire the first SOB at JTA that draws the Streetcar, Skyway and Bus on the same street!

NOW! THAT IS CHOICE! MATRIX! AND ECONOMY.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Did anyone notice the skyway's hours of operation where cut starting today. I noticed the signs when I was on the skyway Saturday. It basically looked as though service would stop 2 hours earlier everyday.

[Lunican]

Skyway
(Schedule Modified)

Monday-Friday 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.
Saturday 12 p.m. to 7 p.m.

http://www.jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?Sel=186

[Doctor_K]

I noticed that as well on Saturday.  Way to attract riders, JTA!

[tufsu1]

what else can you do when you have budget cuts?

This is a problem for transit agencies all over the US....what's even worse is in many cases, these are routes and/or systems that have seen tremendous growth over the last few years.

[fsujax]

well, welcome to what the rest of the country is experiencing with transit cuts!