Littlepage: Room to hope for dramatic improvements at Shipyards

[Jason]

Bay street was widened and they put up a nice wroght iron fence and entry, complete with anchors... oh and finished some of the remaining remediation/demolition necessary for the Superbowl.

[Ocklawaha]

The tragic side story here is that the City gave away $36 Million dollars which went into the ether. Turned around if they gave my Company that much money, we would have a Vintage Streetcar from North Riverside to A. Phillip Randolph. In turn this same streetcar line would spur enough development that "The Shipyards" towers would look small. So Jacksonville, get off your wallet and lets build a boom machine.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Yes, $36 million for a streetcar line would go a long way in stimulating development in the urban core.  However, to be fair, in return to the city's $36 million given to Tri Legacy, they ended up as the owner of a 44-acre remediated waterfront site.  So even though it was bad publicity, the city did not end up in the hole.

[billy]

St. Charles, NOLA!
Great photo, Ock...

[ChriswUfGator]

Bay street was widened and they put up a nice wroght iron fence and entry, complete with anchors... oh and finished some of the remaining remediation/demolition necessary for the Superbowl.

Presumably that was the portion of the $36.5 million that they did not misappropriate.

Remember, they got $36.5 million, they're 'only' accused of swindling $22 million. The $14.5 million left over that they didn't steal is plenty enough to widen some sidewalks and put up a fence. But that doesn't change the fact that they ran off with the other $22 million, using a dubious legal loophole.

[ChriswUfGator]

Yes, $36 million for a streetcar line would go a long way in stimulating development in the urban core.  However, to be fair, in return to the city's $36 million given to Tri Legacy, they ended up as the owner of a 44-acre remediated waterfront site.  So even though it was bad publicity, the city did not end up in the hole.

That's some dubious accounting there, Lake.

I bet that property is still valued at its appraisal back when the deal went down. If you marked its value down to whatever it's really worth now that the Florida real estate bubble has popped, the City is no doubt sitting on a huge loss. It will all come out soon enough.

[Ocklawaha]

I dunno... Extreme High Exposure Land like that is something that many blue - chip corporations would kill for. I think that factor alone makes it somewhat bubble proof. Certainly with the Billions in development that is following streetcar lines around the nation (Even now in the midst of a "bust") it would be interesting to see what we would get with both river frontage and Streetcar On Bay (SOB). The city and/or CofC seems to be doing a very poor job of marketing that waterfront, some of that land has been empty forever. A Supertall on one of those lots would appear from I-95 Northbound to be in or near the roadway as you approach the city from the South. Something that would have all 700 Gazillion people on the super slab "see the elephant".

OCKLAWAHA

[ChriswUfGator]

I dunno... Extreme High Exposure Land like that is something that many blue - chip corporations would kill for. I think that factor alone makes it somewhat bubble proof. Certainly with the Billions in development that is following streetcar lines around the nation (Even now in the midst of a "bust") it would be interesting to see what we would get with both river frontage and Streetcar On Bay (SOB). The city and/or CofC seems to be doing a very poor job of marketing that waterfront, some of that land has been empty forever. A Supertall on one of those lots would appear from I-95 Northbound to be in or near the roadway as you approach the city from the South. Something that would have all 700 Gazillion people on the super slab "see the elephant".

OCKLAWAHA

Well I certainly hope you're right, and it turns out the City will be made whole when/if this thing finally sells to someone who's serious about owning something besides a vacant lot. Otherwise, we'll have just pissed away even more public tax dollars that are sorely needed in other places.

[vicupstate]

Chris,

I do not have to prove how TriLegacy spent every cent that they received. YOU have to prove that they DID spend money on a site OTHER THAN the Shipyards, because that was YOUR accusation.  And to be technical, you have to prove it was spent in Atlanta.

I have seen the site with heavy equipment on it while TriLegacy was in possession of it.  Bulkhead and piling repair work is not something you will SEE the results of unless you are scuba diving in the St. Johns.  Since much (all?) of the site was underwater at some point, at least an inspection of the bulkheads would be logical.

I have also seen and been inside the sales center, which had a paved lot, a fence, an architectural model and a complete model kitchen.  I have seen and met the realtors inside. I have seen the glossy sales materials.  I've seen ads in newspapers and magazines numerous times. All of those things cost money.

I saw the design that nationally known Saski Associates of Boston did for the entire site.  TriLegacy had obtained a building permit for the first building.  That could not have happened without a full set of plans, so obviously, they paid architect and engineering fees to somebody.  It has already been established that they paid off the mortgage on the property with funds received from the city. 

The gist of the disagreement was that the city thought that the funds would be spent ONLY on public improvements and TriLegacy thought the the funds could be spent on anything related to the project so long as the full amount was spent EVENTUALLY on the public improvements.  The jury and  State's attorney agreed that TriLegacy did not break the law or the contract.  Obviously it was a poorly written contract from the city's side.

YOU have alleged that TriLegacy took virtually the entire amount and spent none of it on the Shipyards site (the public or private portions), but instead invested it in an Atlanta subdivision.  I have yet to see proof of that. 

[urbanlibertarian]

If I remember correctly, LandMar assumed Tri Legacy's debt to the city when they took over.  Of course they may now have to default on that.

[thelakelander]

Yes, $36 million for a streetcar line would go a long way in stimulating development in the urban core.  However, to be fair, in return to the city's $36 million given to Tri Legacy, they ended up as the owner of a 44-acre remediated waterfront site.  So even though it was bad publicity, the city did not end up in the hole.

That's some dubious accounting there, Lake.

I bet that property is still valued at its appraisal back when the deal went down. If you marked its value down to whatever it's really worth now that the Florida real estate bubble has popped, the City is no doubt sitting on a huge loss. It will all come out soon enough.

If the city ends of with the land, assuming LandMar bails, its a public asset.  In this day its rare for cities to get their hands on 44 acres of developable downtown waterfront property that has already been cleaned and includes a new concrete bulkhead.  It would be a second chance to do the right thing with the property.  By this, I mean draw up a development plan that secures the desired amount of public waterfront space, while creating well positioned parcels that can be purchased by multiple parties for infill urban development.  Its always better to put your eggs in multiple baskets than to continuously place all your hopes and dreams on the success of big one trick ponies (ex. LandMar, Kuhn).

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris,

I do not have to prove how TriLegacy spent every cent that they received. YOU have to prove that they DID spend money on a site OTHER THAN the Shipyards, because that was YOUR accusation.  And to be technical, you have to prove it was spent in Atlanta.

I have seen the site with heavy equipment on it while TriLegacy was in possession of it.  Bulkhead and piling repair work is not something you will SEE the results of unless you are scuba diving in the St. Johns.  Since much (all?) of the site was underwater at some point, at least an inspection of the bulkheads would be logical.

I have also seen and been inside the sales center, which had a paved lot, a fence, an architectural model and a complete model kitchen.  I have seen and met the realtors inside. I have seen the glossy sales materials.  I've seen ads in newspapers and magazines numerous times. All of those things cost money.

I saw the design that nationally known Saski Associates of Boston did for the entire site.  TriLegacy had obtained a building permit for the first building.  That could not have happened without a full set of plans, so obviously, they paid architect and engineering fees to somebody.  It has already been established that they paid off the mortgage on the property with funds received from the city. 

The gist of the disagreement was that the city thought that the funds would be spent ONLY on public improvements and TriLegacy thought the the funds could be spent on anything related to the project so long as the full amount was spent EVENTUALLY on the public improvements.  The jury and  State's attorney agreed that TriLegacy did not break the law or the contract.  Obviously it was a poorly written contract from the city's side.

YOU have alleged that TriLegacy took virtually the entire amount and spent none of it on the Shipyards site (the public or private portions), but instead invested it in an Atlanta subdivision.  I have yet to see proof of that. 

I've fully proven my point Vic, and posted a TU article which indicates they misappropriated $22 million.

You, on the other hand, have done nothing but spout off your undocumented opinion, without posting so much as a shred of proof. End of story. If you want to continue this debate further, then come up with some evidence beyond your own opinion.

[BridgeTroll]

Not sure you have proved a thing Chris...  You alledged...

developer who literally just stole the money and used it to build a subdivision in Atlanta, and didn't so much as move a shovelful of dirt here.

Vic said... is contending this is not true and you have not shown any evidence to the contrary.

The ball is actually in your court.

[ChriswUfGator]

Not sure you have proved a thing Chris...  You alledged...

developer who literally just stole the money and used it to build a subdivision in Atlanta, and didn't so much as move a shovelful of dirt here.

Vic said... is contending this is not true and you have not shown any evidence to the contrary.

The ball is actually in your court.

Quit nit-picking. The important point in my statement was clear: The developer misappropriated money.

I proved that, read the article. You're disingenuously trying to re-focus attention on a minor and unimportant sub-point, by alleging that I'm wrong because, even though it's clear they misappropriated money, I haven't shown they spent it in Atlanta. Gimme a break. LOL

My point was clearly about the misappropriation of money. Vic then tried to disagree, saying they spent the money as they were supposed to, or on other COJ improvements. When I demonstrated that to be false, he then tried pulling the same trick you are and re-focusing on the Atlanta thing. So fine, forget Atlanta, that wasn't my point. My point was that they misappropriated money, and I was indeed correct.

[urbanlibertarian]

If they misappropriated money why didn't the grand jury indict them?