Ron Littlepage: A riverfront convention center can become reality

[stjr]

According to the property appraiser's site, 8.4 acres.  This excludes Courthouse Drive ROW, which could be built over and the Hyatt's convention facilities.

Present County Courthouse site - 5.988 acres

City Hall Annex block - 2.391 acres

I don't know Lake.  You show the annex for the parking garage.  That leaves only about 6 acres for the convention center and hotel/offices.  It looks too tight to me and would likely need someone to put pencil to paper to be sure.  The garage you show looks a bit smallish also.

As to the City Hall annex, I heard it might not even be available because supposedly the Hyatt property includes an option for the property owner to buy the Annex from the City.  If this is true, the City may lose control of it.

[thelakelander]

That's just a quick sketch to give viewers an idea of how a mixed-use convention center could be set up.  Its definitely not Bible.  Remember, think vertical.  A parking garage could easily be designed within the same structure that would house convention facilities.  With good design, there's a million ways to skin this cat.  Btw, the Hyatt wants the convention center at this site.  If the Hyatt has an option on the property, I would expect they would use this in an attempt to land the convention center next door.  If anything, this tells me the city should explore the possibility of a public/private partnership with the Hyatt to develop a convention center on the courthouse property.

[stjr]

That's just a quick sketch to give viewers an idea of how a mixed-use convention center could be set up.  Its definitely not Bible.  Remember, think vertical.  A parking garage could easily be designed within the same structure that would house convention facilities.  With good design, there's a million ways to skin this cat.  Btw, the Hyatt wants the convention center at this site.  If the Hyatt has an option on the property, I would expect they would use this in an attempt to land the convention center next door.  If anything, this tells me the city should explore the possibility of a public/private partnership with the Hyatt to develop a convention center on the courthouse property.

Lake, two comments to this.  The minimum floor size of the facility will be dictated by the size of the exhibition space and all that goes with it.  Second, putting a parking garage today under a convention hall would probably not sit well with security experts after the incidents in Oklahoma City and the early 90's parking garage bombing of the WTC in NY.

[thelakelander]

I believe the Seattle convention center, which was expanded in 2001, includes parking integrated with the convention facility.  So there is precedence.  Nevertheless, there are a million ways to skin this cat.  The important thing is the critical elements are in place.

1. Convention center hotel already in place.
2. Support entertainment (Bay Street) and retail (Landing) uses are already in place.
3. There is more than enough land to accommodate a state-of-the art convention center.  Combining the city hall annex, courthouse and courthouse drive parcels adds up to roughly 10 acres.
4. Last time I checked, the desired exhibition sf needed is 200k sf.  The courthouse land alone can accommodate a +260,000sf continuous box.  Integrate it with the city hall annex site and that number increases.

Both the Landing and Hyatt have expressed an interest in the past to move the convention center to the site.  Considering this city is broke, is this a potential public/private financing opportunity we may be overlooking?

[Charles Hunter]

You might be able to gain even more "footprint" by closing Market Street, or building over it, fully integrating the Hyatt into the CC facility.

[thelakelander]

Good point.

[tufsu1]

the Pennsylvania Convention Center in Philly is a good (albeit much larger) example...the center takes up four blocks and includes the main exhibit space bridging 12th Sreet....creating a tunnel effect...and they used the nold Reading Terminal as a grand ballroom, with a direct connection into the Marriott hotel.

http://www.paconvention.com/home2/

[mtraininjax]

What, no rail to the new CC downtown at the Hyatt? Did we miss that?

[heights unknown]

If the City doesn't do rail or doesn't get it built in time, then a skyway extension can take care of that.  I say the old courthouse plot is perfect for a convention center (everything is in place), and we might have to go vertical (if needed, two stories maybe), but I don't think we need that large of a convention center; it should be much larger than the size of the "Prime," at least between 150,000 and 175,000 feet of space.

We are definitely not Seattle, Philly, or even Tampa by any stretch of the means.

Heights Unknown

[stjr]

I like a site and concept that would allow a building to be expanded if desired.  A successful project should have a life span of 35 years plus in my opinion.  That's a long time to project accurately the City's growth and needs.  If we build something adequate for today, we should be able to grow it if desired in the future without having to start over again like we are now due to inadequate foresight and/or doing things on the cheap.

If today's CC should be 150,000 to 200,000 sf +/-, what would we do if we wanted to eventually add another 50 to 100% or more to it later?

[thelakelander]

An urban center designed for a little future vertical expansion could accommodate that need.  Unfortunately, the way we're going, it may be another 35 years before we get to 200,000 sf.

[Ocklawaha]

Libby is watching some stupid movie susposed to be in Colombia, the city has to look like poorest Mexico, and you GOT to have lots of pigs running around... LOTS OF PIGS! This By the Way is our Condo in Medellin, Piso 11, a 4 level pool with waterfall between each level, alongside a mountain rapids called "Volcano Creek" (for good reason). Our parking is UNDER the building. Ask me where I feel safer? JAX or MEDELLIN? Next trip I've just got to find those pigs... We gotta have pigs.

I believe the Seattle convention center, which was expanded in 2001, includes parking integrated with the convention facility.  So there is precedence. 

Lake, every major building, mall , condo and office in Medellin, Colombia, is built ABOVE the parking levels. I realize of course that this is America, land of the brave... ur....the smart... well? Cool that Seattle was able to pull this off, I wish our cities were as nice, clean and SAFE as the metro's in Colombia. How do they handle the terror threats? Each building pays for a shift of police, which are provided with a micro-station, office, restrooms etc. As one enters any under the tower parking every XXX cars or so, they do a complete random search - Voluntary. One in X? Cars, or sometimes a string of 5 to 20 cars, get the walk around with a dog and a pot lid mirror on a metal pole.

Never had a problem, never saw a violent moment, even showing up one day without my national ID, licence etc... got me no more then a KIND warning to "Be careful Doctor, someone could take advantage of you..."  UnFrickin Real to anyone who grew up with American TV fiction.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

I believe the Seattle convention center, which was expanded in 2001, includes parking integrated with the convention facility.  So there is precedence. 

Lake, every major building, mall , condo and office in Medellin, Colombia, is built ABOVE the parking levels. I realize of course that this is America, land of the brave... ur....the smart... well? Cool that Seattle was able to pull this off, I wish our cities were as nice, clean and SAFE as the metro's in Colombia. How do they handle the terror threats? Each building pays for a shift of police, which are provided with a micro-station, office, restrooms etc. As one enters any under the tower parking every XXX cars or so, they do a complete random search - Voluntary. One in X? Cars, or sometimes a string of 5 to 20 cars, get the walk around with a dog and a pot lid mirror on a metal pole.

Never had a problem, never saw a violent moment, even showing up one day without my national ID, licence etc... got me no more then a KIND warning to "Be careful Doctor, someone could take advantage of you..."  UnFrickin Real to anyone who grew up with American TV fiction.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, I am NOT an expert on Colombia.  But, if I recall correctly, violence from drug cartels and rebels is a bit more a part of their lives than we in America would find acceptable.  I believe Americans are looking for zero tolerance in this area.  Heck, a business gets sued if one light bulb is out in the parking lot and someone gets accosted under that light.  Is that the legal system in Colombia?  If not, they can afford to take more risks.

As to security, I suppose that paying for those security guards to do those checks and having people wait in line is a bit more affordable due to likely far lower labor costs.  No disrespect intended, but you would have to pay significant hourly wages to actually get a security guard in this country to do something that proactive and professional on his/her shift.  Most do not have the "mojo" or professionalism to deal with this and be acceptable under our legal American standards.  And, could you imagine the lawsuits if "your" security DID let someone get through and an incident occurred?  "What do you mean, you don't check every car? - That's got to be negligence!"

Yes, it would be great sometimes if we were that laid back.  But, it isn't going to happen here.  So, back to the question.  What will be accepted regarding a garage under a major building like this?

So, back to the question.  What, if anything, will be accepted regarding a garage under a major building like this?

[stjr]

An urban center designed for a little future vertical expansion could accommodate that need.  Unfortunately, the way we're going, it may be another 35 years before we get to 200,000 sf.

If you want to expand an exhibit hall, Lake, how would you do that vertically?  I believe most want it as one big room with very high ceilings.

[thelakelander]

Pick a site, give me your square footage requirements and I'll explain.