Rail in Jacksonville: Getting Started Immediately

[thelakelander]

I think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up.  Given the city's recent track history in public transit projects, to ensure the whole system gets built, it's going to need some good PR early which means the first phase needs to attract some riders.

Here is an interesting way to look at the corridors.  By council districts impacted:

Streetcar - Districts 4,7,9 & 14

SE (FEC) commuter rail corridor - Districts 4,5,6,9 & 13

SW (CSX A) commuter rail corridor - Districts 9 & 14

N (S-line, CSX S) commuter rail corridor - 7,8,9 & 11

[Dapperdan]

Unless I am looking at that street car map wrong, I do not see it going all the way down Bay ST past the entertainment district to the stadium. Wouldn't that be a gimme route?

[thelakelander]

Evidently not.  There is a fear that it would only attract significant ridership for special events only.  So, a line down Bay to the stadium would not be apart of the first streetcar phase.

Although the initial corridor is somewhat different than the one shown above, this image also shows potential streetcar expansion routes.


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/979/116/

[Ocklawaha]

St. Louis temporary station - downtown - during several years of construction

Rapid transit is about a lot more than moving people from Point A to Point B,” Owens says. It's about creating vibrant communities. It’s about making Detroit and the suburbs the types of vibrant communities people believe they can become. We need to not only think about what do we want today but want we want 20, 30, 40 years from now. Do we want to continue to sprawl out into the farmlands or do we want to change what we’re doing?” Jon Zemke, Metromode Development News - Density vs. Transit  3 /05/08

Something missed by JTA, as well as most other agencies and all highway builders is hidden in that first line. Think about this:

Highways do NOTHING to move people from point A to B. Highways do an adequate job of moving automobiles from point A to B.

Rapid Transit is the best way of moving people from A to B.

The way I see this is bringing Amtrak or Commuter Rail into the Downtown Jacksonville Terminal without having a completed Skyway or Streetcar or a decent Bus Hub in place is a recipe for disaster. The old "If you build it they will come," has some truth to it. However in Rapid Transit it needs to be carried farther. So If we build it they will come - but what do they do when they get there? If you work at the Justice Complex, Cathedral District, upper La Villa, Courthouse site, Baptist, San Marco, JEA site, stadiums, Talleyrand, Beaver or Dennis Street Industrial areas, or the 8Th street hospitals, you'll be among 2,000 or so others coming in on each route. Step off the fancy new train and your screwed - WALK SUCKER!

We need Streetcar, Skyway and Station Improvements as our distribution system before we distribute people to a dead end. Sure you COULD do it with dedicated buses, but how many rail riders are there because THEY DON'T WANT TO RIDE A BUS?





The new St. Louis Gateway Amtrak Station

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

If DT is supposed to be the major attraction for rail riders, it may be a lost cause.  The skyway may be in more need of having something feed riders into it (streetcars, Amtrak, commuter rail, etc.), than extending it first.

At this point, I'm not sold we need a skyway extension to the stadium before bringing Amtrak back to the terminal or investing in a commuter rail corridor.  An Amtrak hub would not be reliable on the skyway running down Bay to JMS.  Sure, it would be great if there were a direct rail link between the terminal and the stadium for local purposes, but an intercity Amtrak system would operate just fine without it, since most riders using it would not be local.

With commuter rail, I think it would utimately depend on the route and type of service.  For example, the north corridor (transit dependent neighborhoods, Shands, Gateway, higher frequencies, etc.) would not be impacted as much as those stretching into suburban areas south of the DT.

So with $100 million in hand, to improve mass transit in Jax, the expense alone would most likely promote me to favor corridors that served more of the population base (those at stretch outside of DT's borders) on an every day basis over immediately running the skyway down Bay.

[Ocklawaha]

Yes but I did say "a completed Skyway or Streetcar". Thus I still like the bump the streetcar would give us. The Skyway would be icing if we could find another way (Federal Stimulus?) to fund it.

A temporary Amtrak Station of perhaps a station worked into the former "Colored Waiting Room" would be a good start for Amtrak Intercity. It the commuter trains that really need the connections.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I don't think Amtrak would have to rely on a streetcar line being in place first, but there is an argument for proceeding with a streetcar line before commuter rail corridors.

Commuter rail requires JTA to have to negotiate with CSX, NS and FEC to use portions of their lines.  That could be like city hall negotiating courthouse, Shipyards and Waste Management deals.  On the other hand, a streetcar line does not require this and could be developed immediately.

[JeffreyS]

The St. Louis metro link is great. I flew in for a convention rode the metro link past colleges, housing places of work, major league stadiums got off at the convention center.  At the end of the day I rode it back to the burbs where my in laws live.  The train was elevated in some areas, gound levels at others and even subway downtown.  I can't wait for a elements of urbanism St. Louis. 

If we go streetcar we need to be actively pursuing Amtrak.

[thelakelander]

Amtrak has their own money pot and they want to be here.  We need to be pursuing those guys even if we end up doing nothing locally.

[thelakelander]

If I were up to me, I would not spend $100 million on the construction of a starter line.  I would spend a portion of that number on capital costs and set aside enough money to pay for a few years of O&M costs.  My plan would be something like this:

1. Pursue Amtrak by aggressively lobbying FDOT with other Florida municipalities. 

While not traditional commuter rail, an enhanced statewide Amtrak system would link DT with surrounding cities like Orange Park and St. Augustine.  Amtrak investment would also reduce the local cost of commuter rail by having us piggy back off their track capacity improvements.

2. $70 million in Streetcars

I would spend roughly $50-$60 million to construct a streetcar line between Riverside and Springfield.  The initial line would be "no-frills" to keep the costs/track mile low.  "No-frills" would include single tracking portions of the route, using existing public ROW, heritage streetcars (the cheapest), simple stops and combining rail improvements with already planned local streetscape projects. This would enable us to stretch the initial line out to benefit more from the start.  The remaining funds would be set aside and combined with fare revenue and sponsorships to help cover O&M costs for more than a decade.  This will allow the city to immediately enjoy the benefits of rail without having to worry about identifying long term dedicated funding sources right away.

In the meantime, I'd also develop the overall transit master plan and work with the city to make sure their plans incorporate future transit improvements.  A little coordination alone, would save this community millions in the long run.

The rest of the money would be used to speed up the process of applying for federal funding for additional streetcar, commuter rail, skyway corridors and bringing Amtrak back downtown.  I would also invest in aggressive transit related marketing campaigns.  Basically, you would have to live under a rock to not know that Jacksonville is investing in rail to not only improve transit, but also stimulate economic growth and infill in the region.

[mtraininjax]

Respectfully, I think some of you posters are nuts. We have no need for rail, when you can use 100-200 million in the local school system. The proposterous concoctions of people estimated to ride rails are estimates, and really worth the price of my air in Jacksonville.

Rail in Jax is pure poppycock and not needed. Let it die, we need money locally for other social needs.

If rail fans want to go and waste money, do it on the Skyway, so far it has yet to fulfill its prophecy. Or better yet, stand at Forsyth and Ocean and count the cars that go by between 7-9, then go to Forsyth and Broad and count the number of cars rumbling by during the same time. The fact of the matter is there are NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE travelling downtown to pay for RAIL.

Get off it. Or better yet, when we get the school system funded fully, we can then look at the rail folly. Perhaps by then, we will have hydrofoils transporting people from the mecca known as Mayport to downtown, all at the amazing cost of 50 cents each way.

[thelakelander]

Schools and mass transit are two different issues that are funded by different pots of money.  We can ignore transit all we want, but that will not get more money for schools.  It will just end up in roads.  If the schools are struggling, they should start saving money by eliminating school buses for middle & high school students.  There's no reason our kids can't ride city buses like they do in larger cities.  That's something that will help the school system save millions annually and increase JTA's ridership numbers.

[mtraininjax]

Lake - LOL, save money, cut buses, cut power, add solar, have JEA give away power for free. Maybe you have not seen the LARGE influx of new people to the area over the last few years. Maybe we only had 4,000 new people, maybe we had 40,000, who really knows. All I know is that the school system has a deficit that cutting bus service cannot fix, you and I both know it.

Before you go and spend more money on roads (which will all be tolls anyway), think about the future of the educated workforce in Jacksonville. Do you want the same kids today driving the buses or cabs in the future or do you want them to lead the city? Forward thinking leans toward the latter, but its your call.

[thelakelander]

Lake - LOL, save money, cut buses, cut power, add solar, have JEA give away power for free. Maybe you have not seen the LARGE influx of new people to the area over the last few years.   Maybe we only had 4,000 new people, maybe we had 40,000, who really knows. All I know is that the school system has a deficit that cutting bus service cannot fix, you and I both know it.

Of course its not an end all solution but at least give me credit for suggesting its a start.  The latest census numbers show the large influx is headed to Clay and St. Johns Counties.  Duval's population growth has been pretty slow compared to most of Florida's metropolitan areas.  Anyway cutting buses is only one part of the solution.  Selling excess land (including land at existing schools...ex. there's no reason the school board needs six blocks in LaVilla) and better management of funds coming in are also things worth exploring.  There's a ton of things that could be done, but its a completely different issue than transportation.

Before you go and spend more money on roads (which will all be tolls anyway), think about the future of the educated workforce in Jacksonville. Do you want the same kids today driving the buses or cabs in the future or do you want them to lead the city? Forward thinking leans toward the latter, but its your call.

Considering communities with efficient transit have shown the ability to attract high paying jobs and an educated workforce over those that don't, I'd say ignoring transit would be shortsighted.  Having the ability to draw in educated households from other areas also helps our school system.  Since the funding sources are different, if its my call, I'd prefer finding a way for better transit and schools.  This is not the case of an either or choice.

[mtraininjax]

no reason the school board needs six blocks in LaVilla

Who wants it? No one wants the JEA land ON THE RIVER, so who would want this land? The school board is as backward as the JTA, so its a matter of who wins. Right now there are more supporters of the School system. When was the last time JTA supporters marched on Tallahassee with kids who would be affected by transportation issues?

We disagree, but I think you cannot put transportation issues ahead of education. We did that for many years in this town and we only received an accredited university in the 60s compared to others around the state who did so much earlier. Education has always been an after thought here, and the lovely call center jobs are a perfect example. Any kid with a heart beat can answer a phone, but it takes serious management skills to lead that call center and Jax has some good schools now, but we need to keep local talent here, instead of letting it go elsewhere.

Sacrificing transportation for growth from education is something I am willing to see.