Walkable Streets: A Lesson for the JEDC

[stjr]

Lake, thanks for the detailed response.  What I think we have here is a chicken and egg situation.   I think we can both agree that status quo is going nowhere soon.  So how do we change the paradigm?  I am suggesting it will need to be more than by piecemeal.

You concede that Laura is already bypassed by most even with auto accessibility.  To me, this is an important factor in making it a prime pedestrian mall candidate. A conversion can't generate any less traffic than presently and shouldn't cause an upheaval in downtown traffic.  If most or all cross streets are left open, auto and delivery traffic is never more than a half block away.  A pedestrian mall could even be designed to allow service vehicles in off hours, such as late nights/early mornings, and for emergency vehicles.

People here keep saying we don't have tourists.  Well, we never will until we give them something to see and do.  This would be intended to double as a tourist magnet.

By the way, another advantage to Laura Street would be that it will pull people into the non-waterfront center of the City which currently has little attraction to pedestrian traffic.   With more circulation further inward, perhaps there would be more retail and entertainment vitality on the many cross streets.

Given what we waste on other projects in the community, I think this could provide a huge bang for the buck.  We both also seem to agree that EXECUTION is critical.  You don't seem to think we are up to it.  I say we SHOULD be and NEED to be.  Accepting second or third class will get us nowhere.  Let's make this a priority and incorporate it into our master plan.  Maybe we can get some stimulus money for it and do it sooner than later.

[thelakelander]

You concede that Laura is already bypassed by most even with auto accessibility.  To me, this is an important factor in making it a prime pedestrian mall candidate. A conversion can't generate any less traffic than presently and shouldn't cause an upheaval in downtown traffic.  If most or all cross streets are left open, auto and delivery traffic is never more than a half block away.  A pedestrian mall could even be designed to allow service vehicles in off hours, such as late nights/early mornings, and for emergency vehicles.

Ever notice what happens to an enclosed mall when one of the anchors shut down?  Unless, its replaced with something, all the small shops on that wing tend to die out.  We can close streets, but the lack of a decent anchor on the north end to generate traffic at nights and on weekends would still be needed.  Even with MOCA Jax and the library staying open late in the evening, they don't have to pull to fill in small retail shops over a four block stretch.

People here keep saying we don't have tourists.  Well, we never will until we give them something to see and do.  This would be intended to double as a tourist magnet.

I didn't say we don't have tourist.  I said we don't have anything on the level of what visits Key West.  History has proven that tourist don't visit because of pedestrian malls.  If attracting tourism is the goal, the city should be focusing more on beefing up its cultural attractions and promoting its history.

By the way, another advantage to Laura Street would be that it will pull people into the non-waterfront center of the City which currently has little attraction to pedestrian traffic.   With more circulation further inward, perhaps there would be more retail and entertainment vitality on the many cross streets.

Sidewalks and plants won't pull people off the waterfront.  You need a viable destination anchor to do this.  Spaces that shut down at 6pm and a multi block church don't qualify as viable main anchors.

Given what we waste on other projects in the community, I think this could provide a huge bang for the buck.  We both also seem to agree that EXECUTION is critical.  You don't seem to think we are up to it.  I say we SHOULD be and NEED to be.  Accepting second or third class will get us nowhere.  Let's make this a priority and incorporate it into our master plan.  Maybe we can get some stimulus money for it and do it sooner than later.

I'm not sold a pedestrian mall is first class.  While I would not advocate putting in a full blown highway, a well balanced corridor featuring transit, limited vehicular access and sidewalks can't be first class.





















Automobile accessibility/visibility is just as important as pedestrian accessibility/visibility to retailers.  Instead of completely eliminating one from the mix, the better option would be to attempt strike a balance.  With that said, I think what the JEDC currently has planned for Laura Street is on the right path, for the most part.  After all, if you want to have a festival, you can always temporarily shut the entire street down.

Current Laura Street plans

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/790/119/

[Ocklawaha]

How about a little "COLOMBIA" on Laura?







Has any thought been given to doing Hogan AND Laura? IF we kept them one way, with a single lane, then with a 30 foot roadway we could have an 18' long (regular) angle parking on one side and a 12' traffic lane behind that. More or less what San Marco or Five Points have, but limited to one side. The buildings all seem to be 60 feet apart with a slight + / -  meaning we'd get 30' to play with, plant, decorate etc...

My dream? The Hogan - Monroe - Laura - Water Street shuttle bus... "Want to ride?"


BTW, I think cashing in the stupid sign rule makes sense for business owners, perhaps we should theme it with "NEON" and old bulb type theater "CHASER LIGHTS" . Would that be cool or what?




Hey! Where is OUR purple bridge?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I love the bike lanes.  Considering it directly links DT with Springfield, Laura would be a great corridor for them. 

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks Lake, in Colombia they all have different colors depending on the route. The bike lanes NEVER look like the sidewalk or the street colors. Also they seem to have a sort of rubberized? surface that looks something like a cross between a non-skid strip and swimming pool cool deck, I think we use it in Tennis Courts. Very nice, but it's a shame that Bogota has more miles of "cyclovias" or "Caril de bicicleta" then the whole state of Florida. But then Bogota isn't a small town either!



OCKLAWAHA
Forever in the jungles of Colombia...

[stjr]

Ever notice what happens to an enclosed mall when one of the anchors shut down?  Unless, its replaced with something, all the small shops on that wing tend to die out.  We can close streets, but the lack of a decent anchor on the north end to generate traffic at nights and on weekends would still be needed.  Even with MOCA Jax and the library staying open late in the evening, they don't have to pull to fill in small retail shops over a four block stretch.

Lake, what kind of anchor would you suggest we need?  Event oriented?  Retail?  Entertainment?  Food court?  Isn't the Snyder church on that end near Hemming?  Where else could you go unless you take City Hall and transform it again into something else?  I was thinking Hemming Plaza itself and the surrounding activity already there would be a source of interest and pedestrians.  Maybe a collaboration of activities could form the anchor equivalent.  Let's get some imaginative input!

I didn't say we don't have tourist.  I said we don't have anything on the level of what visits Key West.  History has proven that tourist don't visit because of pedestrian malls.  If attracting tourism is the goal, the city should be focusing more on beefing up its cultural attractions and promoting its history.

I am saying attracting tourists is just one more benefit in the mix, not necessarily the main one - that should be getting locals to patronize downtown regularly and in volume.  Your statement is a contradiction of earlier statements made pointing to tourists as the reason for the success of St. George Street when I cited it as a successful pedestrian mall example.  If the tourists aren't on St, George for the mall and its environs, then why are they there at all? To see the exteriors of a few historic buildings turned into little shops?  By the way, what is the anchor on St. George?  One end is a park/plaza, not unlike Hemming.  The other is a merger into A1A in front of the fort.  Nothing notably big on either end.  Which comes first, the mall or the tourists?  Why not seek the maximum audience, tourists AND locals?  It seems no matter which side I propel here, I am losing.

Sidewalks and plants won't pull people off the waterfront.  You need a viable destination anchor to do this.  Spaces that shut down at 6pm and a multi block church don't qualify as viable main anchors.

I never left it at this.  I offered multiple enhancements to make the entire walk active.  You are relying on what is there presently, not what could be.  This is admitting defeat before even starting.  A master plan (now that's a new idea!) would insure that the necessary ingredients are present before moving forward.  The mall is the strategic goal.  Tactical decisions are endless and could be pursued in many ways.  I am not building it but, if asked, for a mutlimillon dollar consulting fee, I will be happy to assist.

I'm not sold a pedestrian mall is first class.  While I would not advocate putting in a full blown highway, a well balanced corridor featuring transit, limited vehicular access and sidewalks can't be first class.

First class is in the eye of the beholder and is subject to the quality of EXECUTION.  What we have presently is certainly not first class to most even given wide latitude. Why are we being so pessimistic about the possibilities here?  Where is the creative thinking driven by achieving the goal?

Automobile accessibility/visibility is just as important as pedestrian accessibility/visibility to retailers.  Instead of completely eliminating one from the mix, the better option would be to attempt strike a balance.  With that said, I think what the JEDC currently has planned for Laura Street is on the right path, for the most part.  After all, if you want to have a festival, you can always temporarily shut the entire street down.

Well, we have auto access now and where has that gotten things? Nowhere.

Lake, I think we should both be encouraging something within the range of yours and my concepts on Laura Street and drill into the details once it's in the City's sites.

[thelakelander]

Lake, what kind of anchor would you suggest we need?  Event oriented?  Retail?  Entertainment?  Food court?  Isn't the Snyder church on that end near Hemming?  Where else could you go unless you take City Hall and transform it again into something else?  I was thinking Hemming Plaza itself and the surrounding activity already there would be a source of interest and pedestrians.  Maybe a collaboration of activities could form the anchor equivalent.  Let's get some imaginative input!

While the current office uses surrounding the park pull people in during weekdays, they all shut down at night and on weekends, which turn three sides of the park into dead zones outside of office hours.  If it were up to me, I'd attempt to cram the park's borders with a mix of cultural oriented uses.  Museums, concert halls, entertainment venues, etc. to compliment MOCA Jax and the library.  Hemming would then become a front door and central gathering spot for all of these venues.  Unfortunately, outside of the Snyder, there's only so much you can do with all of the office uses taking up the ground floor of most of the buildings.

I didn't say we don't have tourist.  I said we don't have anything on the level of what visits Key West.  History has proven that tourist don't visit because of pedestrian malls.  If attracting tourism is the goal, the city should be focusing more on beefing up its cultural attractions and promoting its history.

I am saying attracting tourists is just one more benefit in the mix, not necessarily the main one - that should be getting locals to patronize downtown regularly and in volume.  Your statement is a contradiction of earlier statements made pointing to tourists as the reason for the success of St. George Street when I cited it as a successful pedestrian mall example.  If the tourists aren't on St, George for the mall and its environs, then why are they there at all? To see the exteriors of a few historic buildings turned into little shops?

My statement was not a contradiction.  St. George Street does not work because its a pedestrian mall.  It works because there has always been a huge tourist element and density in the area.  The immediate lack of these two major factors are things that a pedestrian mall in downtown Jax would have to overcome.

The majority of tourist visit St. Augustine for the same reason they visit Charleston and Savannah.  Its the oldest city in the country and large number of historic buildings have been preserved.  People flock to this area to see history for themselves, not a pedestrian mall.

By the way, what is the anchor on St. George?  One end is a park/plaza, not unlike Hemming.  The other is a merger into A1A in front of the fort.  Nothing notably big on either end.  Which comes first, the mall or the tourists?  Why not seek the maximum audience, tourists AND locals?  It seems no matter which side I propel here, I am losing.

In St. Augustine's case, the preservation and promotion of its history pull in the tourist, not the pedestrian mall.  Because its in the middle of a major tourist destination (over 2 million visitors a year), the main anchor is the tourist district itself.  To the north, there is the main visitor's center/garage, Uptown, Ripley's and the fort.  There are also historic attractions scattered in that area like the oldest schoolhouse and drugstore in America along with a large number of small hotels and motels.   On the south end, you have the Casa Monica hotel, Flagler College, the core of downtown in general and the Lightner Museum. 

Sidewalks and plants won't pull people off the waterfront.  You need a viable destination anchor to do this.  Spaces that shut down at 6pm and a multi block church don't qualify as viable main anchors.

I never left it at this.  I offered multiple enhancements to make the entire walk active.  You are relying on what is there presently, not what could be.  This is admitting defeat before even starting.  A master plan (now that's a new idea!) would insure that the necessary ingredients are present before moving forward.  The mall is the strategic goal.  Tactical decisions are endless and could be pursued in many ways.  I am not building it but, if asked, for a mutlimillon dollar consulting fee, I will be happy to assist.

I'm not admitting defeat, I just don't think pedestrian malls are that great if forced in the wrong setting.

I'm not sold a pedestrian mall is first class.  While I would not advocate putting in a full blown highway, a well balanced corridor featuring transit, limited vehicular access and sidewalks can't be first class.

First class is in the eye of the beholder and is subject to the quality of EXECUTION.  What we have presently is certainly not first class to most even given wide latitude. Why are we being so pessimistic about the possibilities here?  Where is the creative thinking driven by achieving the goal?

First class would be determined by the success of businesses operating in the area and the attraction of the area to customers and residents.  The creation of a pedestrian mall is no more creative than an nice outdoor atmosphere that finds a way to accommodate all modes of transit. 

Automobile accessibility/visibility is just as important as pedestrian accessibility/visibility to retailers.  Instead of completely eliminating one from the mix, the better option would be to attempt strike a balance.  With that said, I think what the JEDC currently has planned for Laura Street is on the right path, for the most part.  After all, if you want to have a festival, you can always temporarily shut the entire street down.

Well, we have auto access now and where has that gotten things? Nowhere.

We had pedestrian only access and it help put the final nail in the coffin for most major retail in downtown.  It also helped kill off retail in most cities across the country that tried it in the 70s/80s. Of course.   Anyway, I think we can agree that a toxic cloud currently exists over downtown.  Until the things that create that toxic cloud are removed, nothing will work long term.

Lake, I think we should both be encouraging something within the range of yours and my concepts on Laura Street and drill into the details once it's in the City's sites.

Although, I not a fan of everything in the current Laura Street streetscape plan, it does include a lot of things we publicly pushed for back in 2006.  The city reads this site.  Keep suggesting things and eventually something will get picked up.

[stjr]

St. George Street does not work because its a pedestrian mall.  It works because there has always been a huge tourist element and density in the area....The majority of tourist visit St. Augustine for the same reason they visit Charleston and Savannah.  Its the oldest city in the country and large number of historic buildings have been preserved.  People flock to this area to see history for themselves, not a pedestrian mall.

Lake, I remember St. George Street before it was a pedestrian mall.  The tourists and the history are constants and were always there, but visitors did not flock to St. George Street - until it was converted.  Compare the area today to what it was pre-mall and tell me the mall, being the only significant change, didn't turn the area into something far greater than it was.  St. George gave tourists a friendlier shopping environment encouraging tourists to stay longer and spend more money greatly enhancing the St. Augustine economy.  Ask anyone in St. Augustine today if they would tear up St. George and convert it back to an auto-accessible street with parallel parking.  The fort, Ripleys, the Fountain of Youth, Old Jail, Flagler, the Lightner - all have been there forever and St. George didn't benefit from these attractions like it did when it was converted.  I would further assert most, if not all of those attractions, are far enough away from St. George to have little or no direct impact on it from a pedestrian standpoint.  I would hardly call the Old School House or Drugstore major tourist attractions.  They are 10 second walkbys.

First class would be determined by the success of businesses operating in the area and the attraction of the area to customers and residents.  The creation of a pedestrian mall is no more creative than an nice outdoor atmosphere that finds a way to accommodate all modes of transit.

Using your definition of first class, we can't answer the question until the mall is established.  Creation of a pedestrian mall can be a creative process and probably needs to be, to be successful.  Creativity and imagination are major ingredients missing in everything Jax does.  It's time to start changing that and this would be a great showcase for bringing these elements to the forefront.  The engineers, architects, and city planners need to share their mantle with some artists, entertainers, marketers, merchandisers, chefs, musicians, actors, and other creative types to make this work.  Downtown Jax lacks whimsy, fun, color, surprise, interest, etc. that encourages visitors to stick around and see what else lurks around the next corner.  Maybe the Chamber and City Hall need to spend a week at the theme parks in Orlando for inspiration.  Or Mallory Square in Key West which, although devoid of anything notable save a poor view of the sunsets over an unattractive over-developed island, pulls in thousands daily to visit a parade of odd-ball street vendors and entertainers.

We had pedestrian only access and it help put the final nail in the coffin for most major retail in downtown.  It also helped kill off retail in most cities across the country that tried it in the 70s/80s.

I am not sure where in Jax you are referring to (the area around Hemming Plaza?) but wherever it was, it couldn't have been significant or well executed.  Major retail in downtown died because of suburban flight, lack of identifiable downtown parking and adequate and reliable public transit, excessive and lengthy construction of Hemming Plaza and the $ky-high-way, a lack of downtown residents, inconsistent planning, ever changing street flows, and failed adherence to a given master plan causing confusion and unreliable support, the decline of the corporate workforce downtown - not because of pedestrian only access.

As you concluded, let's hope City officials give half the thought you and I have in this discussion to what they finally execute.

[thelakelander]

Lake, I remember St. George Street before it was a pedestrian mall.  The tourists and the history are constants and were always there, but visitors did not flock to St. George Street - until it was converted.

BINGO!  There is a reason this concept works in places like St. Augustine and South Beach, but fails in areas like Downtown Tampa and Raleigh.  I'm not arguing the merits of St. George Street.  What I'm trying to point out is that there are built in reasons St. George Street works and why doing the exact same thing in downtown Jax, without giving credibility to those reasons, will result in ultimate failure.  When discussing St. George Street, don't discredit the powerful impact of that environment already being a place that attracts 2 million walking visitors a year.  This is really an apples and oranges comparison, given the context of the two CBDs.

First class would be determined by the success of businesses operating in the area and the attraction of the area to customers and residents.  The creation of a pedestrian mall is no more creative than an nice outdoor atmosphere that finds a way to accommodate all modes of transit.

Using your definition of first class, we can't answer the question until the mall is established.  Creation of a pedestrian mall can be a creative process and probably needs to be, to be successful.  Creativity and imagination are major ingredients missing in everything Jax does.  It's time to start changing that and this would be a great showcase for bringing these elements to the forefront.  The engineers, architects, and city planners need to share their mantle with some artists, entertainers, marketers, merchandisers, chefs, musicians, actors, and other creative types to make this work.  Downtown Jax lacks whimsy, fun, color, surprise, interest, etc. that encourages visitors to stick around and see what else lurks around the next corner.  Maybe the Chamber and City Hall need to spend a week at the theme parks in Orlando for inspiration.  Or Mallory Square in Key West which, although devoid of anything notable save a poor view of the sunsets over an unattractive over-developed island, pulls in thousands daily to visit a parade of odd-ball street vendors and entertainers.

The best way to learn before spending big bucks is to look at the 220 examples of American pedestrian malls built since 1970.  There is a reason that only 30 ended up being successful.  By studying the environments they worked and failed in, we can know right off the bat if one would work on Laura Street.  If we really look at the surrounding environment, its easy to see we fit in the mold of the failure side.  Now if we can pull in some surrounding density and create a stronger tourist base, things may change.

We had pedestrian only access and it help put the final nail in the coffin for most major retail in downtown.  It also helped kill off retail in most cities across the country that tried it in the 70s/80s.

I am not sure where in Jax you are referring to (the area around Hemming Plaza?) but wherever it was, it couldn't have been significant or well executed.  Major retail in downtown died because of suburban flight, lack of identifiable downtown parking and adequate and reliable public transit, excessive and lengthy construction of Hemming Plaza and the $ky-high-way, a lack of downtown residents, inconsistent planning, ever changing street flows, and failed adherence to a given master plan causing confusion and unreliable support, the decline of the corporate workforce downtown - not because of pedestrian only access.

As you concluded, let's hope City officials give half the thought you and I have in this discussion to what they finally execute.

I hope all ideas floating around on Duval Street are thoroughly debated.  The more answers you can properly address in the concept stage, the more successful the final product will be.