High Speed Rail Money allocated in Stimulus Plan. Corrine Brown Delivered.

[Ocklawaha]

I agree completely that it makes sense to use the existing tracks...but Ock, are you really implying that Jax. would be a good rail hub for train trips WITHIN Florida?

Really, there are about 5 million people along the I-4 corridor....and another 5 million along I-95 in SE Florida....Jax has 1 million....and there is only about another million in northwest Florida.

Yes, the high speed rail studies assumed lots of tourists using it...in fact, Disney offered to put all of their visitors arriving at OIA on the train instead of all those buses...as long as the Greeneway route was chosen w/ a stop at Disney vs. the I-4/Beachline route with a stop on I-Drive.

It really has nothing to do with population's or even density, Amtrak's "Empire Builder" from Chicago to Seattle across the roof of the nation consistantly leads the country in ridership. Railroads are point to point lineal systems, hub and spokes systems work great for airlines (Example Jax to Pensacola all day long as long as it's to Atlanta first). So the function of a rail "hub" is basically different then that of an airline hub. In an airline hub all flights are grouped to converge at the same time frames, then there is a frantic rush of passengers from plane to plane, along with the sundry ground crews determined to make sure at least 2 bags from each plane get on a flight to Mexico City (LOL).  Bus hubs work much the same way, single vehicle, grouped schedules, mad transfers etc... Rail depends to a great degree on the passenger traveling from Jax to St. Augustine, Palatka, Ocala, Daytona, or Dade City. When lines converge the passengers remain seated (or sleeping) and the train itself is broken up for various destinations - seemless transfer. The only common point it shares with any other form is with the intra or inter-city bus, which also uses a city-center to city-center passenger delivery method.

Populations not withstanding, rail takes a single train (one each way daily) and serves many micro-corridors within the same trip. Chicago-Kansas City, Kansas City-Newton Kansas, Santa Fe-Gallup, Albuquerque-Flagstaff, etc... all with ONE train.

The amount of construction to do what Florida has in mind in Orlando is economic insanity. Yes, it is just for tourists, so we Floridians don't count. If we did Jacksonville, Daytona Beach, Tallahassee, Pensacola, Ft. Myers, Sarasota would all be added to the route map. But with the crazy planning, if you live in Ocala, you'll board a 200 mile per hour train, to Orlando, then rush across an AIRPORT to another 200 mile per hour train for Tampa. You could walk it almost as fast. Airline thinking and rail operations won't work.

Now sure, Jax could serve as a gateway for trips to/frm the northeast and Atlanta....but that's about it!


And we could be the gateway to the west...that's where the real battle would be. If passenger lines are established from Orlando to Tally then we're left out.

It's not if we should be the hub we are. If you can get a south to central Florida direct great but other than that Jax is where the trains go is where the diffrent rail lines connect.

lol, jeff, some punctuation would help. If Im reading you correctly, I think the difference is in how we perceive a rail "hub." And no one is saying Jax wouldn't be a crucial player in the region as a whole.

Since no right minded Floridian is going to take advantage of the giant Orlando "HUB", and since Disney is a major player (who by the way will pull their support IF the train gets near International Drive, Sea World or Universal!) The whole thing is a giant corportate vaccuum to suck up our dollars for the benefit of a mouse, as well as the throngs that rush to visit him.
This isn't so much a "Florida Rail Plan" it's "Mickeys Railroad" all over again.

You are correct that we do own the WEST and the NORTH of Florida as far as rail is concerned. How long until the proposed Gulf Coast Corridor and the Southeast HSR Corridor (which ends in JAX) will all connect in .... JAX?  Then if Mickeys Railroad goes north to Jax, 3 completely different systems, 3 connecting and interchanging railroads = TRUE RAIL HUB.

If you think I'm wrong can you imagine JTA's system hubbed out of JIA? Who would ride it? Airline passengers to be sure but Downtown, Riverside, Beaches, etc... would be screwed. This is exactly what the State proposes to do with an Orlando "Hub". Nobody in Orlando is going to drive out 20 miels to the airport, wait, board a train, race to Tampa Airport, rent a car and drive into town... ANYONE could drive it faster and cheaper. This isn't "RAIL THINK" this is Train-thinks-it's-a-plan disaster in the making.

How about flying to Orlando from JAX if the fare was only $15 dollars? How about $30 dollars? Did you know we have had such fares for a month at a time as promotions? Did you take the HIGH SPEED PLANE? My guess is no, it's just not the arrival and departure place of choice for anybody I know.  

Question for the rail aficionado: can the high speed trains run on normal tracks at slower speed? If so, I don't think it matters at all that certain high-speed corridors are fragmented from others. That just means you ride one leg (like Orlando to Jax or Pittsburgh to Cleveland) of normal rail and voila, you're in a new high speed corridor. Nobody is being left stranded (assuming Amtrak fills in its current gaps of service)

Yes most trains can run on either type of track, provided they have the power source (probably electric). Certainly this "COULD" be part of the answer, but space limitations in the Downtown just about take Orlando completely out of the game. Amtrak isn't downtown, Church Street Station is abandoned (as a depot), Winter Park - NOT A CHANCE!, The new LYNX station is central but has no room for track. So we're back to OIA, and OIA is a whole different kind of boondoggle.

FAYE: Not making an Obama vs Mica comment here, just that Obama wasn't using his own ideas, or those of his advisors.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Ock...you're just not getting it...no one is disputing the position of Jax. in terms of serving the rest of the country.

But rail passengers from Jax. to St. Augustine, Palatka, Ocala, Daytona, or Dade City....there are far more potential passengers on a Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa route.

Orlando is not just a tourism mecca (although it often seems that way)...its a growing metropolis of over 2 million people....with the second largest university in the state....and happens to be in the middle of the peninsula....it makes complete sense as a hub for INTRA-FLORIDA travel!

[thelakelander]

I agree that Orlando is in position to be a central hub for statewide passenger rail, assuming the focus is only Florida.  However, Jax should and probably will remain the hub and gateway of most rail traffic coming in and out of the state.

I love a train as much as the next guy (ok, maybe not as much as Ock), but I only want them where it makes financial sense and doesn't set the future image of rail transit up for failure.  The unfortunate part about the high speed rail plan in Central Florida is its set up for tourist, as opposed to Central Florida's 7 million residents.  High speed makes sense between Orlando and Miami, but commuter rail linking Central Florida's cities would be superior (and cheaper) than high speed rail with severly limited stops in the middle of I-4. 

[ProjectMaximus]

Yeah, Lake, I understand your point about the dense Orlando-Tampa corridor. It's short and quite populated along much of that stretch. Let tourists take the "express" routes on the commuter rail.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock...you're just not getting it...no one is disputing the position of Jax. in terms of serving the rest of the country.

But rail passengers from Jax. to St. Augustine, Palatka, Ocala, Daytona, or Dade City....there are far more potential passengers on a Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa route.

Orlando is not just a tourism mecca (although it often seems that way)...its a growing metropolis of over 2 million people....with the second largest university in the state....and happens to be in the middle of the peninsula....it makes complete sense as a hub for INTRA-FLORIDA travel!

I agree that Orlando is in position to be a central hub for statewide passenger rail, assuming the focus is only Florida.  However, Jax should and probably will remain the hub and gateway of most rail traffic coming in and out of the state.

I love a train as much as the next guy (ok, maybe not as much as Ock), but I only want them where it makes financial sense and doesn't set the future image of rail transit up for failure.  The unfortunate part about the high speed rail plan in Central Florida is its set up for tourist, as opposed to Central Florida's 7 million residents.  High speed makes sense between Orlando and Miami, but commuter rail linking Central Florida's cities would be superior (and cheaper) than high speed rail with severly limited stops in the middle of I-4. 

A look at the USDOT traffic volume maps for the Interstate Highway System tells the story. The traffic pattern's in Florida are not East-West, not even I-4 centered. If you want the heavy traffic in Florida look from Wildwood North to Lake City on I-75, roughly twice I-95's volume, and dwarfs I-10. The Turnpike to Orlando and Miami take about 1/2 that traffic, bringing it down to I-95 levels, while the other half head for the West Coast. The standout reason that Daytona Beach/Titusville/Cocoa/Melbourne-Orlando-Tampa isn't showing a huge volume is just what Lake said, it's not HIGH SPEED RAIL travel country, if anything, it's Amtrak and Commuter Rail country. Most trips are short distance and spread over hundreds of feeder roads.

IF the High Speed Rail needs a hub in Central Florida, TAMPA is better positioned to handle the trains then Orlando. With rail, END POINT cities always make more sense then middle of the road cities. (Before anyone has an AH HA! moment!) Jacksonville is all of the above. Tampa has a Union Station, with room for replacing the original 8-10 tracks, which would serve to make up and break down trains headed East or Southeast.

As for East/North of Orlando, blood will flow before they decide on a route to the coast and actually build it. Daytona? no! Cocoa? no! Melbourne? no! etc...  If you try and be all inclusive with a fishhook along the beach, then your back to square one - easier to drive.

The fact is, this system isn't planned to serve those 3-5 Million residents, if it was, the stations would be on the CSX and FEC Mainlines, and at some point the HSR would peel off and make a dash for the next station which is ... OOPS only 10 miles away! 200 miles per hour indeed!

A fleet of remanufactured RDC cars, some platform rebuilds and for the cost of the paper in the HSR study, Central Florida would have a system it would REALLY use.

You see, I do "get it", Florida tax payers are going to end up paying BILLIONS for a new ride for DISNEY. DISNEY ONLY mind you. If Universal or Sea World or International Drive come to play, Disney has already said they will opt out! This isn't Florida High Speed Rail, this is Epcot Vomit.

OCKLAWAHA

[fatcat]

ok. i think i am moving to Orlando. Better public transportation, less homeless, more active urban  core, better food plus mice for me to eat