High Speed Rail Money allocated in Stimulus Plan. Corrine Brown Delivered.

[thelakelander]

Amtrak just received billions in additional funding.  Amtrak's problems in the past have been a result of a lack of funding.  If Florida is willing to get on board with a statewide corridor service (we don't have one right now), money is now in place to fix track capacity issues. 

[JeffreyS]

That is my point it seems the government like to cut Amtrak budget when the freight companies complain. I prefer the Amtrak idea so to look on the bright side of high speed rail maybe it will have some immunity to politics with it's budget.

[Ocklawaha]

I never knew the old high speed rail proposal Jeb killed was shovel ready.  Unfortunately for Jax, Orlando is being set up to be the statewide rail hub.

Orlando would become a hub for later extensions to Miami and Jacksonvillle.

I know we've had some dialogue about this before, so excuse me if I am misunderstanding something, but to me, Jacksonville was never poised to be a hub for Florida. If anything, we would be a regional hub...providing primary access into and out of the state. But within Florida, it makes much more sense for Orlando to serve such a role. I don't even see how it's possible for Jax, being in the northeast corner, to ever be a statewide rail hub.

If this were air travel we were discussing, then logistics aren't as relevant. Direct flights would go in and out of the busiest city/destination. But with rail...the hub more or less has gotta be a central location, no? 

In a league of our own... Will we surrender this too?

This is not a question as to "if we were ever positioned to be a rail hub for Florida." FACT. WE ARE THE RAIL HUB OF FLORIDA. There is no other city that even comes close in rail infrastructure. Not a single major City in the State with 3 class 1 freight railroads - but Jax. Not a City in the state with 5 regional terminal railroads but Jax. Not a city in the state with a single railroad HQ, we have 2 major, and 40 smaller railroad HQ's here. Not another City in the state with a large Union Station that is central to all rail lines - but Jax, in fact ours is the largest South of Washington D.C.. What about mainlines into or out of each Florida City? Pensacola=3, Tampa=3, Miami=3, West Palm=4, Ocala=4, Orlando= 3, Gainesville=1, Sarasota=2, Ft. Myers=2, Jacksonville = 7.



Orlando has about as much rail infrastructure as St. Augustine, historically St. Augustine had much, much more then Orlando and it's only been in the last 40 years that everything (at least on the Florida East Coast) has scooted north to Jacksonville.


Waiting for Amtrak in Tampa

There is no exit or no entrance from the peninsular of the State of Florida by rail except through Beaver St. / Myrtle Avenue Interlocking plant of NS/CSX/FEC. In Jacksonville.

As far as building entire new high speed lines, this is doomed to one of two things:
Utter and complete failure due to FDOT lack of railroad competence.
Or over-engineering and spending on the whole system, which will leave future segments unbuilt and unfunded, and passenger numbers in the gutter.

WHY?

Because this new generation of "rail planner" thinks if we build a 4 track electric railroad down the middle of I-4, 95 or 10, and run 200 MPH trains every 5 minutes, people are just going to magically materialize to ride them.

No thought is being given to the residents for example who make up the bulk of the travelers from Orlando to Tampa, rather the new railroad is to go from OIA/MCO to TPA (both airports) with stations along the interstate for Lakeland etc. FORGET IT! Won't work. I lived in Lake Mary for 6 years, and if I've got to drive to OIA to catch a train to Tampa, I'm better off DRIVING all the way to Tampa! Ooh, but I'll miss the stop at Disney!

The only way to make High Speed Rail work here is the same way it worked in Japan, Europe and the US Northeast Corridor. Start with downtown to downtown conventional rail, increase trains, increase frequency's, build new stations, improve equipment, build overpasses, expand capacity, create corridors, increase speeds again, and build, build, build a following. A rail community, a rail society, a rail generation.

Anything short of this, and all the money in the world isn't going to fix the problem. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, nice map.  I suppose history, politics, and geography has a lot to do with it, but I must say one would have thought along the way we could have had more direct and logically laid out rail pathways and grids. I wonder how much inefficiency is created by so many jig-jag and broken lines.  Looking at our roadmaps, you could probably make the same comment about some of them too.

[Ocklawaha]

It did with a capital "DID" have flow in it until starting in 1968, inch by inch the branchlines were cut, when the Staggers Act passed in 1980? It was wholesale slaughter. Florida decided to super-tax the railroads for all that unused property, which resulted in even faster abandonments. Some were done so quickly that tracks were cut-off from the scrap trains and left to rot in the woods! We went from a state with many exit routes, IE: JAX, Lake City, Live Oak, Perry, etc.. and some 5,000+ miles of railroad to a state with barely over 1,000 miles, a few mainlines, and a bunch of dead end pieces. Maybe I should do the map and fill in all the abandoned portions... IT WOULD SHOCK ALL OF YOU! How stupid we have been with our resources.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I think 120mph.  For comparison's sake, Amtrak's Acela Express (Boston-NYC-DC, etc.) operates at speeds in excess of 135mph.

the Florida High Speed Rail is planned for 200+ with an average of 150....that's the main reason they didn't go with the current Amtrak/CSX routes...they would have been limited to around 80mph on average.

As to some of the other talk, Jax may be a freight rail hub...and could even serve as a passenger hub to/from other states....but hardly for passenger trips within Florida...Orlando is the center of the state's population.

[thelakelander]

I think the problem is there is no need for a rail line running 200mph from Tampa to Orlando.  The stretch between Tampa and Orlando is roughly the same length as South Florida's Tri-rail commuter rail system.  High speed rail does nothing for the rapidly growing communities springing up between the larger cities.  A system running 79mph, but with stops in Plant City, Brandon, Lakeland, Auburndale, Haines City, Kissimmee, etc. would be more beneficial to Cen. Fl. residents than one with only one stop between Tampa and Orlando.

[stjr]

Why not follow the northeast model?  My recollection from former years up there was they ran both the high speed/express (and mostly business person oriented) Metroliners/Acela which only stopped at major cities and, on the same or parallel tracks, slower (and cheaper) non-express trains stopping at every town in between.  Riders could take their pick based on their needs and budgets.

I would think a high speed/express train in Florida might be Jax-Orlando-[split]-Tampa and Miami.  If we could get a west bound line from Jax, those from the south could continue from Jax to Tallahassee to Pensacola.  I would imagine most tickets in the initial phase would be Tampa-Miami, Jax-Miami, Jax-Orlando, Jax-Tampa, or Orlando-Miami.  Later, adding Tallahassee, as the state capital, and Pensacola could do wonders for the accessibility of those cities to the state's population centers and would make Jax the pivot point for express rail as well as the inter-connection to interstate trains from the North.  Also, with this arrangement, most of the state's population and commerce would be within a 60 minute drive of these stations.

The non-express trains could hit Daytona, St. Augustine, Gainesville, Lakeland, St. Pete/Sarasota, Ft. Myers, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Titusville, Ocala, Okeechobee, Deland, etc.  Maybe, some of those cities could be served by connecting to local area commuter rail lines radiating out of the larger express line cities.  Orlando might serve as the "hub" for the non-express network.

[Ocklawaha]

This is Amtrak TODAY, and "Florida" if it only had a brain.

Sorry to burst the bubble of this party, but Orlando with one rail line from the North (Jacksonville) and one (the same) rail line to the West/South either Miami or Tampa via Auburndale Jct. is NOT in a position to be the hub of anything.

I submit to you a question; how many times have YOU ridden Amtrak within our region at 79 MPH?
Think you would ride at 80? 90? 110? 150? "Maybe" is the best one could answer.

High Speed Rail has not taken hold in country's with long stage lengths because the costs go up on a steep curve. The cost to time benefit starts becoming laughable at about 150 MPH. Toss in another $5 Billion and we "could" shave another 2 minutes off the schedule... Humbug!

How fast do you "REALLY" drive on the super-slab? I-95, I-10, etc..? 80? So if our trains consistently break your travel times for less over all dollars, you might ride, MIGHT. This speaks well for trains that can hit 90 MPH on long stretches such as JAX-PALATKA-DELAND, or WEST PALM-SEBRING, but it does nothing to convince me that the economic realist's won't shoot this in the foot after one or two state projects bite the farm.

BTW, the Obama push for the Midwest High Speed Rail Project is not his own project. Spearheaded by Ohio and in the books for YEARS, it has finally started to move forward. Other states joined in and they formed a compact. When Obama spoke of the benefits of High Speed Rail in his famous fast train speech in Denver? He was READING FROM THE MIDWEST HSR BROCHURE! Now this isn't to toss dirt on the President, but just to give you a sense of how deep this heartfelt concern really goes.


Beware Florida this could be your state on drugs.

In order for Orlando to be a hub, we would be taking about blowing a completely new 100'-200' right of way, from about Lake City-Gainesville-Ocala-Leesburg-Orlando-(Kissimmee River Valley)-West Palm Beach-Miami, this is the only way to give them true HSR potential North and South. To go East, another new Rail Line will have to be busted through from Orlando-Cocoa Beach-Port Canaveral. As there is no way to get any of these rail lines into Downtown Orlando, which REALLY IS the center of the Metropolis's, all lines will have to come and go from the Orlando International Airport. THAT SINGLE FACT makes the entire hub nearly useless to anyone but tourists. OIA, or SANFORD-ORLANDO, have to be two of the most remote and difficult to get to airports in the State of Florida. Great if your going to visit one Mick.E.Mouse, but horrible if you live in Altamonte Springs, Lake Mary, Oviedo, Clearmont, etc.

The FACT that this is exactly what the FOX or Florida Overland Express network proposes, tells you that 1. Yes, they want Orlando to be the hub, 2. Tallahassee wants Orlando to be the hub, 3. "THEY" don't expect anyone but tourists by the plane full to ride it - it is NOT BUILT FOR FLORIDIANS.

Another "FACT" they are not saying, is if 80% of this out of state traffic arrives in the Orlando Airport, then they don't expect the Southeast High Speed Rail to be a success either! Otherwise, JAX would be the HUB, every train would enter through JAX and split in JAX for all the nice tourist destinations... OH AND BY THE WAY, IT MIGHT EVEN SERVE LOCALS!

Lakelander is right, do the math, how many people live on this I-4 corridor between Tampa and Orlando? WHERE DO THEY LIVE? (hint: It isn't on I-4 ... it's along CSX).

So go in and FOLLOW the tracks we already have, or some of the recently abandoned right-of-ways. Super-elevate (bank) some curves, add a second or third track, build a few 1-3 mile cut offs to shave some of the old curvature away. Wipe out ALL RAILROAD CROSSINGS. Fence the whole right-of-way. String electric cantenary. Jack the speeds up to 90 or even 100, and you'll have a realistic Florida High Speed Rail Project.



Addictions can be deadly - Yes this is in the USA and it FAILED!

ANYTHING BEYOND THIS IS PISSING INTO THE WIND!

OCKLAWAHA
Jacksonville Rules the Rails

[thelakelander]

Yes, it makes more sense to take advantage of an existing rail corridor where the center of nearly every Central Florida community exists, along with a station.  In Central Florida, outside of Tampa, the I-4 median routes would drop one off dead smack dab in the middle of Blanding Blvd. like environments.

Lakeland

[tufsu1]

I agree completely that it makes sense to use the existing tracks...but Ock, are you really implying that Jax. would be a good rail hub for train trips WITHIN Florida?

Really, there are about 5 million people along the I-4 corridor....and another 5 million along I-95 in SE Florida....Jax has 1 million....and there is only about another million in northwest Florida.

Yes, the high speed rail studies assumed lots of tourists using it...in fact, Disney offered to put all of their visitors arriving at OIA on the train instead of all those buses...as long as the Greeneway route was chosen w/ a stop at Disney vs. the I-4/Beachline route with a stop on I-Drive.

Now sure, Jax could serve as a gateway for trips to/frm the northeast and Atlanta....but that's about it!

[JeffreyS]

It's not if we should be the hub we are. If you can get a south to central Florida direct great but other than that Jax is where the trains go is where the diffrent rail lines connect.

[ProjectMaximus]

I figured I would awaken the sleeping rail giant. But alas, Ock, I think you misunderstand me and my ignorant rail mind. tufsu and I are on the same page...

I agree completely that it makes sense to use the existing tracks...but Ock, are you really implying that Jax. would be a good rail hub for train trips WITHIN Florida?

Really, there are about 5 million people along the I-4 corridor....and another 5 million along I-95 in SE Florida....Jax has 1 million....and there is only about another million in northwest Florida.

Yes, the high speed rail studies assumed lots of tourists using it...in fact, Disney offered to put all of their visitors arriving at OIA on the train instead of all those buses...as long as the Greeneway route was chosen w/ a stop at Disney vs. the I-4/Beachline route with a stop on I-Drive.

Now sure, Jax could serve as a gateway for trips to/frm the northeast and Atlanta....but that's about it!

And we could be the gateway to the west...that's where the real battle would be. If passenger lines are established from Orlando to Tally then we're left out.

It's not if we should be the hub we are. If you can get a south to central Florida direct great but other than that Jax is where the trains go is where the diffrent rail lines connect.

lol, jeff, some punctuation would help. If Im reading you correctly, I think the difference is in how we perceive a rail "hub." And no one is saying Jax wouldn't be a crucial player in the region as a whole.

Question for the rail aficionado: can the high speed trains run on normal tracks at slower speed? If so, I don't think it matters at all that certain high-speed corridors are fragmented from others. That just means you ride one leg (like Orlando to Jax or Pittsburgh to Cleveland) of normal rail and voila, you're in a new high speed corridor. Nobody is being left stranded (assuming Amtrak fills in its current gaps of service)

[tufsu1]

that's the man advantage of the Acela train...since it tilts, its able to run at relatively high speeds on some of Amtrak's less straight rail...something many of the European trains can't do

[FayeforCure]

BTW, the Obama push for the Midwest High Speed Rail Project is not his own project. Spearheaded by Ohio and in the books for YEARS, it has finally started to move forward. Other states joined in and they formed a compact. When Obama spoke of the benefits of High Speed Rail in his famous fast train speech in Denver? He was READING FROM THE MIDWEST HSR BROCHURE! Now this isn't to toss dirt on the President, but just to give you a sense of how deep this heartfelt concern really goes.

HMMM, You prefer going back to Bush's heartfelt concern?

As your buddy Mica says:
Picking up a bottle of water and pointing to it, he (Mica) said, “Working with the Bush Administration has been like talking to this bottle of water. My side of the aisle has been myopic.”
http://www.railwayage.com/B/xfromtheeditor.html

I would say Mica is heartfelt about helping CSX and getting freight trains out of Winter Park where he lives, but he is not about working to help Amtrak......Something to keep in mind!!!

His side of the isle hasn't been particularly good on public transit, as they simply do not believe in government. Yet no public transit system can be realized without government funding!

I like your downtown to down town suggestion vs Airport to Airport 

It's combatting commuter congestion vs tourist congestion. On the other hand, if we make it more convenient for tourists, we might boost our tourist industry, which is something Florida heavily depends on.